#009 Immigrating, Mainstream Media & Woke Workplaces w/ Dale Warburton

"I remember hitting the pavement, guns over us and I was like "Australia, Australia, Australia - let's make this happen..." What I always stress to people is that I'm the 1% - 99% of people don't have the skills or the money to be able to immigrate. I've got quite a different relationship with money - I look at money now as freedom and optionality - that's really the equation."
_______________________________________

Dale Warburton was held up at gun point in a robbery a week before he left his home country of South Africa, to move to Australia in 2018. If that’s not interesting enough, here’s a bit more about him...

A former attorney with degrees in political philosophy, law and real estate, in addition to a diploma in financial planning - Dale currently works in commercial real estate in Brisbane, Australia. A self-described extrovert, Dale also enjoys enjoys writing, presenting, negotiating and working with people.

Having previously worked for a "crypto" publication owned by a mainstream media network, Dale saw this industry from the inside and subsequently started “The Why Bitcoin Show” - a weekly podcast on why Bitcoin matters. It covers why Bitcoin is different in every respect to all other crypto tokens in existence. 

In his words, he cares about truth and "crypto" isn't that. It's a game for insiders to take advantage of asymmetrical information and regulatory arbitrage. Bitcoin is free, fair and open to all. Crypto is not.

Connect with Dale on Twitter at https://twitter.com/Dale21M

Listen to his podcast The Why Bitcoin Show  on Spotify - particularly the second part of his chat with Michael Dunworth discussing BACKING YOURSELF in the digital economy! 

_______________________________________

PARTNERS:

JOIN THE CREATOR ECONOMY!
➯ Inspired by these creators living their best lives?! Nothing is stopping you doing the same when you learn how to turn your existing skills and interests in to income streams online. Sign up for our 7Day Fast Start 'Modern Wealthy' curriculum using this link and I'll be there to cheer you on with monthly Q&A coaching calls 👉🏼 https://beyougetpaid.com/launch

FIRST TIME BUYING BITCOIN?
➯ Keep it SIMPLE with the Amber App by dollar-cost averaging in to Bitcoin on auto-pilot. Buy as little as $5 to get started and check out the super helpful education and articles all in the same app. Get $10 of free Bitcoin when you sign up at https://beyougetpaid.com/amber

GOING BIG ON BITCOIN?
➯ Need 1on1 help buying & managing your Bitcoin on a bigger scale? The team at The Bitcoin Adviser have been entrusted with managing over $1 billion in client assets since 2016. These guys will take you by the hand through any part of the Bitcoin world that you may feel unsure about and will take extra special care of you when you get in touch at https://beyougetpaid.com/btcadvice

KEEP IN TOUCH:
➯ Free Emails https://beyougetpaid.com/sunday
➭ Twitter: ...

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

I remember, like hit the pavement, you know guns over us and I was like Australia, australia, australia, let's make this happen, come on. You know, what I always stress with people when I talk to them is saying, like I'm the one percent 99% people literally don't have the skills or the money to be able to immigrate.

Speaker 2: 0:19

So you can be the top one to five percent of your of the wealth in your population, and all you want to do with that is leave and leave your family behind.

Speaker 1: 0:28

I've got quite a different relationship with money in the sense where I look at money actually now it's just. It just equals freedom and optionality. That's really like the equation.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Well, hello human. Thanks so much for tuning into the BU Get Paid podcast. I'm your host, amy Taylor, and I have one goal by being in your ears to explore as many conversations and perspectives as possible on stuff we did not learn in school, you know, stuff that would have actually helped a lot more of us thrive, rather than just survive as grownups in an often challenging and ever changing world. As the title might suggest, this includes anything involved with knowing ourselves, understanding money and generally anything that might offer some insight into how we can all be happier humans With that in mind, wherever you're listening, you'll find links to some of the best resources I have personally found to help with all of those things. Sometimes I'll talk about these in a bit more detail, and I want you to know I will only ever recommend products, services and companies that I am a customer or user of myself.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Now, real grownups here, and as such, you'll possibly hear the occasional use of grownup language. More importantly, anything discussed here is personal opinion and intended for conversational and educational purposes only and should not be taken as financial or investment advice. That's housekeeping done. Let's get into what I hope is some helpful chat Connected on Twitter. A Twitter bit coiner. There's many of us. Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:54

I didn't even really use Twitter until I got into Bitcoin and then everyone was like you need to be on Twitter and it's just very quickly become my favourite platform. And now Elon.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Musk has taken it over, and I actually really like it.

Speaker 2: 2:05

I know there's as much vitriol and we'll get into that. By the way, there's as much vitriol and low level comments as there are on any other platform, but you generally find I find the people on Twitter extremely smart for the most part, especially anyone remotely discussing money Bitcoin. It's great. So thank you for joining me. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:29

I did that very human thing when we connected, of just subconsciously having an image in my head. And then I listened to one of your podcasts and heard that you were South African and I was like this does not fit my free framing of what I've assumed. So how long have you been in Australia?

Speaker 1: 2:48

Five years. I was over five. We came in April 2018. So, yeah, i'm like 39 now. So when I was 34, the raffle date.

Speaker 2: 2:59

I was going to ask you if you were a millennial, yeah, good, perfect.

Speaker 1: 3:02

I'm actually at the back end of it. apparently I'm clinging on.

Speaker 2: 3:06

I'm like I'm a millennial, just but one of the elders, the wise elders, hopefully.

Speaker 1: 3:13

We certainly are.

Speaker 2: 3:14

So what brought you over here? presumably from South Africa?

Speaker 1: 3:18

Yeah, economic migrant, you could say, primarily if you think about South Africa long term, it's not a great place to raise a child, it's pretty violent, unfortunately. So the crime had gotten really bad. We were held up at gunpoint, and that was even after the fact of deciding we were coming to Australia. So I remember hit the pavement guns over us and I was like Australia, australia, australia, let's make this happen, come on.

Speaker 2: 3:49

So this is you and your wife were held up at gunpoint. You were saying Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1: 3:55

So it was weird because we were actually just outside a mate's house whose bell wasn't working and we were there to talk about them looking after our cats while we were in Australia and then sending them across. So it was just like, oh, it was just really bad luck and that kind of just sealed the deal and made it really easy to assimilate, because I was like, yeah, i'm done. It's almost like a woman who gets beaten by her husband and then decides enough is enough. It's just like, no, no, this relationship is over. I'll always go back. I'll always have a special place in my heart for Africa, but yeah, it's done.

Speaker 2: 4:28

Are your family still there And also just like.

Speaker 1: 4:31

I've got. My parents are there. It's a bit of a convoluted story but my sister's in Auckland. I've only got a sister, so she's three years younger and she's in Auckland, and my parents are in Cape Town. But they are in the process of trying to organise all sorts of different kind of options. So before we came to Australasia they were doing the whole sort of golden visa thing with Portugal. Then we kind of changed ship and we were here. So now my dad's looking at an investment visa in New Zealand and they've just spent the last four months there and they're like oh, new Zealand's pretty shit. And respectively they didn't like it.

Speaker 1: 5:12

So they're kind of like okay, we actually want to try and make something happen here and there's like some sort of visa where, if the balance of your children are in Australia, you can apply as parents for permanent residence. so that's going to be the plan, so yeah, maybe you should all just go.

Speaker 2: 5:30

If you're all in Bitcoin, you should just all go to Portugal, as far as I'm concerned, but if you've got connections here, but anyway, let's move on from that. I've got a similar story my mum's over here. I can probably tell you what my experience of that was, albeit she came from the UK.

Speaker 1: 5:45

What do?

Speaker 2: 5:45

you tell me. I generally try and sort of go through people's origin story where did you go up, yada, yada. But I feel it would make more sense to loop back to that with you, because you've probably got some really interesting stories, including being held up at some point So fast forward through childhood, like going into. I find that millennials talk a lot about career choices and what did you sort of in South Africa presumably? what was your first job out of college uni? did you do the uni thing?

Speaker 1: 6:16

Yes, yes. So I think when I was young, what I always thought I wanted to be was what they call like a game ranger, like the guy, just the safari guy. You know They're great. Yeah totally, i've been.

Speaker 2: 6:33

I've done Kruger.

Speaker 1: 6:35

Oh, brilliant, brilliant. You know there's actually nothing quite as magic, but yeah, so that was the kind of the thought at some point. but out of uni I did, like everyone, i did kind of hospitality. So I was from about the age of 16. Yeah, i was, i did. I was a waiter in all sorts of restaurants, pizza places and all that kind of stuff and really just pocket money. And then in uni, part time, what I did was actually deliver fruit and veg to incredibly wealthy people and I would just. I used to have this car called the city golf. I mean, most people don't even know what that is, but it's like the smallest VW you can possibly buy and I would literally just stuff this whole car full of fruit and veg yeah and smash it out in three or four hours and that was just my party money.

Speaker 1: 7:29

So I did that probably for like three or four years during uni study. So I started out, yeah, so I did a, did a BA, law so, and political philosophy. So that was the kind of the first bit and loved philosophy, like you know. But that's not a job does teach you how to think, teach you how to reason, which is rad. So I loved it and it got me thinking about all sorts of things. There was some subjects that were like a game changer for me, like the single that was called applied ethics and it was about the morality of homosexuality and, you know, you might have some. You might have grown up in an environment where some people might have thought there was something wrong with it and then, literally, you go through every single argument it's abnormal. But being left hand is abnormal okay, yeah, it's not natural, but you know, glad, wearing glasses on your nose not natural, you're like shit okay this is like so critical thinking as well yes, totally.

Speaker 1: 8:34

So. That was quite more so than anyone else would you?

Speaker 2: 8:37

then you learn anywhere else? sorry, you generally. Was that something you had to do with law? did you have to do philosophy with law?

Speaker 1: 8:44

no, no, no, no, no. That was so. It was optional. So I originally contemplated doing like a double degree, like in psychology and law. But people that I spoke to just said it's too hard. I enjoyed psychology too, so I did that for a couple years too, but eventually kind of have to pick a lane and I thought it was suggested to me to do a. What would it be like? an LLB? but it would be a Bcom LLB.

Speaker 1: 9:10

So do finance, but being Dale and kind of just saying no off the bat, because my dad had my dad's a childhood accountant so he was like that'd be a good idea and I was like no, so I just did a, an os degree and a law degree and then, yeah, later on and quite quite a bit later, so, like gosh, i mean, i didn't even know how long, maybe like a decade later.

Speaker 2: 9:35

I did it before you go a decade before. Okay, before you jump to a decade later, did you choose to do law, thinking being a lawyer is a good career for good money?

Speaker 1: 9:49

I definitely, i definitely did like the idea of money. Is that? the weird thing was I was thinking I suppose you know it's a little bit of a juvenile thought, but you kind of go yeah, having money allows you to do things, allows you to buy things, and maybe I should like go back a few steps just to kind of frame my relationship with money, because it's the way I thought about it, because totally, please yeah, so my family, both my mom and my dad they grew up in very modest homes in a small mining town called Springs in South Africa.

Speaker 1: 10:25

It's a gold mining town and you know they they didn't come from any any wealth or anything like that working class families. My dad's mom was a bank teller for 35 years exercio that kind of stuff and when they first bought their, my parents bought their first home. It was a one bedroom and within a few years interest rates were up at like 18% and my mom's was saying like she's told me these stories about how they used to just cry because they're not both of them, but my mom would be crying, going like I don't know how are we going to pay the bills, kind of thing. So my dad would go out and he was doing his articles at the time and I was basically in this one bedroom with my and a small little garden. My mom and I would literally just work in the garden and apparently I just got really brown and tanned and played in a bucket and that kind of stuff. So you grew up relatively poor but for whatever reason, my dad had like a crazy drive in him and the result was that I didn't actually spend a lot of time with him, but he managed to really just apply himself and progress from one sort of role to the next. And, long story short, eventually him and a bunch of other guys created a business.

Speaker 1: 11:32

That was the first formal retail that townships in South Africa ever had, so prior to that it was spasashops and basically you know, can imagine just like a sole trader just goes and buys two kilogram bags of maize and that kind of stuff and none of the suppliers would go into the townships because too dangerous. So if you're like a bread company, you're not going to go in there, actually get hijacked. So what they did was they had a model where the staff owned half and the management owned half, and then they owned the other half and so all the suppliers started coming back and that was the first formal retail for the African townships. And then they saw their business to a Coles type type. It's called pick and pay, who actually accepts Bitcoin now, which is funny, but for anyone who's not Australian, coles is a supermarket chain sorry.

Speaker 2: 12:23

I was just explaining that Coles is a supermarket chain for anyone who's not Australian yes, yes, yes so so they became that or they sold the business to that chain.

Speaker 1: 12:34

They sold the business to this, to this large supermarket chain, and essentially, as a result, we then, you know, he obviously stumbled across like a big amount of money and that is when we decided to relocate and we went to Cape Town and I went from being like in a pretty modest, like normal home because you know that my parents were in flash or anything to living in really prestigious estate in a really nice area in Cape Town.

Speaker 1: 13:02

So it was like I don't want to say like a rags to riches story, but it is like quite, it's pretty cool. And so As a result of my formative years, my teenage years actually growing up in an environment where kids were getting sort of three series BMWs as their first car I couldn't like my dad would be like oh my God, that doesn't make any sense. He was always very grounded and I've never just been impressed by that, and so, as a result, i've got quite a different relationship with money, in the sense where I look at money actually now as just it just equals freedom and optionality. That's really like the equation.

Speaker 2: 13:39

That probably really served you because, apart from the fact that you're in South Africa well, especially the fact that you're in South Africa it just would have made you a target which, it sounds like you later experience what that is like.

Speaker 1: 13:52

So Yes, exactly, and you know, unfortunately, like I think, the reality is everyone's a target there. The life story cheap there, but obviously the fact is that if you've got more, you do have to protect it. So you don't really get much help from the government. So you need to get private security and private health care and move overseas All the other things.

Speaker 2: 15:58

There's so many South Africans overseas Tons.

Speaker 1: 16:01

Exactly. And you know, what I always stress with people when I talk to them is saying, like I'm, the one percent, The 99% people literally don't have the skills or the money to be able to immigrate. To leave Exactly. In many ways. It's a bit like the Brazilians as well.

Speaker 2: 16:16

There's a big Brazilian market here, or I said market Brazilian population here and in New Zealand as well. And you know I don't think people realize as much as they are the one or top 5% of their population. You know the choice. It's a contradiction, isn't it? It's like you can be the top one to 5% of your, of your, of the wealth in your population, and all you want to do with that is leave and leave your family behind. Like it's, it's like more money, more problems.

Speaker 2: 16:45

In a way, It's an escape, but that's a sacrifice. It's a huge sacrifice. So you went into law. I want to get to the point where you ended up working in mainstream media, because I was listening to you interview someone else on your podcast and it's that moment where you started questioning something. Bitcoin may have come later, but you said you start I think it was Michael Dunn with you were talking to and you you ended up Brit. Take me through the story to where you ended up working in mainstream media and you started questioning something for the first time.

Speaker 1: 17:21

To put the pieces together, i literally just phosphored through like 12 years because, basically, i did my law articles and did commercial or I knew in like two weeks that this is not going to work. The secretary who I was waiting for said, like I know you're not going to be a lawyer And I was like don't tell anyone. And and then, shortly after that, once I qualified and became a lawyer, then it was like OK, i did a bit of legal compliance work, moved across to commercial property and, you know, not necessarily like passion about it, but you know that's what you do. And so we moved across here in 2018 now and went straight into commercial property, as you do, and for the first time in my life, i had multiple offers and that didn't ever happen in South Africa, which was quite unique. It's like a pure meritocracy Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:05

And I'm like yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:07

And so I was like, whoa, this is a dream, so yeah. So then in 2020, my wife and I make the bold move to pack up and go to the Northern Rivers region to go live in Casarina, and this is all just as covid's happening.

Speaker 2: 18:24

And she was literally like this we need to pack up, we need to go, and so we were just packed up, were you in Sydney, in Adelaide, oh Adelaide, ok God, ok, that's a big move, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:36

So we were just literally like in our hospital's form. We literally got our cat and our dog packed the car and we raced to the border. We got to broken hill and we're like, phew, we're in Because we had to live in a regional area. So the long and the short of it is that we lived in Northern Rivers primarily because I had to live in a regional area. I had to work in a regional area or I could do remote work, But I couldn't literally go across the border and be a waiter in, you know, Cougar Gada, 10 kilometers away as an example. That's just the way it worked.

Speaker 1: 19:05

So I needed to find a way to earn an income and I then decided, OK, well, may as well try and study a bit more in finance, because I've always found it interesting. And then I started coming across Bitcoin and I was like whoa, And that's kind of where I started doing a deep dive. I wrote like an 80 page dissertation. Then I was like I want to work in this space. How do I work in it? Well, you know, Bitcoin's like gold. You know like I can't work for gold.

Speaker 1: 19:33

So what I do? I applied for lots of different kind of roles and ended up as a managing editor at a crypto publication. So I was a bit coin before I got into crypto media and that was about a year with that crowd And that then got sold to an exchange. I'll tell you offline who they are. You can just read at the bottom of the website, if you want to, the teaser scenes. And then and then I moved across to another business that was recently started by Nine Network, And that's when I really got kind of hit in the face with mainstream media, mainstream Channel 9 here.

Speaker 2: 20:13

Yes, yes, wow, ok.

Speaker 1: 20:17

So it was a publication that was within a stable of publications owned by a group called the Pedestrian Group, which is like a youth focus group that I had Vice and a few others, and then on top of that group was Nine, so Nine was called the Big Daddy Nine.

Speaker 2: 20:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:34

That's how it worked.

Speaker 2: 20:36

So they were a subsidiary of the mainstream media that you were then working for. OK, carry. on.

Speaker 1: 20:41

Correct, but essentially had all the qualities of working for mainstream media, because you'd already worked in crypto and you knew Bitcoin before you worked in.

Speaker 2: 20:48

I thought it was the other way round from listening to you before, but that's really interesting.

Speaker 2: 20:52

So you already had the bit of the conspiracy theorist hat on to a degree, because that's what I think a lot of us are seen as by the outside world or those who don't understand why we get so passionate. And I think especially 2020 was a year where, if you questioned one thing, if you already knew Bitcoin, or if you'd started to look down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, the dots just started to join very, very quickly by following money, and it was just such a fractious, divided time and it still is. But it's interesting that you'd already gone down that rabbit hole and then worked in mainstream media. And what's next?

Speaker 1: 21:31

You're right. Yeah, it was a weird time and, funny enough, all the conspiracy theorists are increasingly accurate by the day Correct, we could say, which is very vindicating, and so many of the things that I'm not just. I'm so stoked that finally, like, the truth is being unveiled, but it takes so long. No-transcript. Yeah, as you said I was. I was a bit coiner before I started working in crypto, so I didn't believe in crypto for like a day, not one day.

Speaker 1: 22:00

I Correct. I knew it was all BS, right, i just knew it was all scams. But I had to find a way to try and work in Bitcoin and that was kind of my, that was kind of my opportunity and it was then towards. I've lost track now, but It was a really challenging period because, especially working for mainstream media in like nine, the, the kind of the cultural side, the, the work politics I just didn't drive with. So I Originally had sort of Bitcoin as my pronoun on LinkedIn and I had to remove that and They, everyone had their pronouns in the email and I was just like there's just no ways I can do this, so I removed it.

Speaker 1: 22:42

It was noticeable and I just I started losing like a little bit of me. It sounds like a little bit extreme, but my, my wife and I would go for walks every day with our dog and I would just complain the whole time and It's just like I know that that's always a signal my body that I'm not well, you know, yeah, and Eventually, eventually, i just was like you know what this is, what's actually, with the support of my wife, she just said like just pack it up, man. Just you know, walk away, it's not worth it.

Speaker 2: 23:17

But what?

Speaker 1: 23:18

Because my thing on sorry to cut you off What was your job No no no, so it was so the first thing is it's it's all garbage, amy. Basically, was web three Okay and the people that we're talking about them under standards and It was? it's all buzzwords, it's all marketing. Truth is irrelevant. Nobody knows what's happening. What was so wonderful was and this is a story might appreciate that SBF was exposed during my stint.

Speaker 1: 23:44

You know Sam Bankman Fried, the notorious probably the biggest criminal, the biggest criminal in crypto, that's far. And, as this is happening, i thought this is my opportunity and I've said this another podcast, i'll try to put it a little differently But I thought this is my chance to try and like orange pull this publication, because I always said, guys, why don't you try and have a little bit of a foot in Bitcoin, a little bit in web three crypto? because I think, when it Pivots and reality hits you, what you want to be able to say Hey, we was, we still had a bit of signal. At the moment, it's just noise. That was just my kind of five cents.

Speaker 1: 24:19

Yeah and I guess, long story short Why I eventually decided like we need to figure out some of these things. Like we keep saying decentralization. Can anyone even explain to me what you're talking about? I explain literally, tell me what you mean. And people would be kind of a little confused. I said, okay, i'm gonna do a presentation for the team and I'm gonna, let's try and like, figure this one out.

Speaker 1: 24:40

And Sort of ten minutes into my presentation, the CEO It's just like hey, hey, so you stop a, it sounds like you're trying to sell me on Bitcoin here. So I'm like, no, no, i'm trying to just sort of uncover something, like all these people that I've been following, like my Twitter time on stifling to yours. Everyone knew this was inevitable. They knew FTX, they knew Celsius, they knew Block Fire, they knew all of these crypto companies. They were either, you know, engaged or so Let's just call it degenerate behavior. And You know, corey Clipston From Swan was one of the guys calling it out, and so I was like I follow Corey and he's called with stuff out And he's like, oh, he's that crazy maxi.

Speaker 2: 25:20

I'm like It's true as well, but he's been proven extremely Reliable with his track record.

Speaker 1: 25:29

He is. He's a sharp shooter and he knows. That's why I back him, because he doesn't make Claims that he can't back up and back up. He's got a really good record. And another guy's, mike alphalford. He is Very good in being able to call BS on some stuff and like, just as an FYI to anyone's listening who's interested. Binance is the biggest red flag in the industry and we'll see what happens to that thing. I think it's gonna blow up probably in the next Three to five years, but these things can happen quite slowly, gradually.

Speaker 2: 25:59

Then suddenly could say yeah, well, the side note and we'll come back to this topic with the Bitcoin, not crypto argument. The argument is always well, not the argument. The the basic advice is if you're buying Bitcoin, you, wherever you're buying it, you just get it off the exchange. I don't care if it's the most reliable exchange in the world. It's been proven in the last couple of weeks like even even the most well-intended Bitcoin only exchanges can fall prey to whoever's behind them. Right, like insurance companies with underwriters. It ultimately there's layers to this stuff, but yes point of Bitcoin is this or the?

Speaker 2: 26:36

the fundamental Intention is that you hold it yourself. Itself Custodies, and it and it's puts the responsibility back in the individual's hands, and unfortunately, far too many people don't seem to want that responsibility.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Which leads into another.

Speaker 2: 26:54

Correct and that's a great, that's a great segue Into you know, you trusted yourself and your intuition to walk away from your job because, i Think again, you'd already gone down the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Speaker 2: 27:07

But this whole questioning of mainstream media or things that we've been, you know, told or read, and and for years, you just never had a reason to question it. And I think what one thing you said on your episode with Michael was just when you see that Something's not true, it's quite frightening to start peeling back all these layers of like well, what else isn't true? and Robert F Kennedy Jr is doing a great job of terrifyingly, but also Incut. I guess it's, it's inspiring, it's it's hopeful and optimistic that someone in a position of some degree of power or influence is actually now willing to to be out there being a voice for this stuff, and not just for Bitcoin, but but for where this interwoven web of Influence, power, manipulation all comes together and it's not very nice, but it's, you know, there is hope. So I'm always sure, i'm always ranting about this stuff on Instagram and social media, but it's like, but there is this thing called Bitcoin that offers hope on so many levels, but it takes a very long time to peace it all together.

Speaker 1: 28:12

Exactly exactly, and I think I actually don't even know what the name of this phenomenon is. But Once you've got an expertise in something and you read about it in a publication and it's so wrong, that's when you should start going Okay, what else are you wrong about? What else are you wrong about? and What's happened with mainstream media is, through just the democratization of information We don't need to get, we don't. I don't need to know what's happening.

Speaker 1: 28:40

You know, in front of the courts in Brisbane, i can probably just hop onto some sort of you know guy who's live streaming and via Twitter, i can get real time stuff from people on the ground. That's what's happening And I don't need your commentary, i don't need your bias, whether it's left or right. I know that you've got a corporate agenda And we've got receipts. We've seen it all, you know. I mean like not to make this about Rona, but you can just you just have a look at the amount of videos circulating today which is like okay, safe and effective. Okay, it's not quite, but it's a little bit. And then it's like it keeps on. The narrative kept shifting, and then it's like there are people paying attention from day dots, but they were told they were idiots. So I'm very, very hopeful, but I tend to think that things are going to get much worse than they get in short, to me You need to turn, and do you think that's one of those things?

Speaker 2: 29:30

you hear people ask this question a lot. Do you think what, what goes on in mainstream media as someone who's been in there, albeit in a micro niche of it, do you think what happens there is intentionally what's the word nefarious and malicious, or do you think it's just people doing the same thing they've always done because they're given a handover and a set of rules and a operating manual and how to a job description? Do you think it's a bit of both, like, where do you sit with that?

Speaker 1: 30:05

Unfortunately, there's no easy answers. So I know, for example, working at the one crypto publication, whenever they were really flexing on Binance, we can say anything because they were paying us. So excuse me, so that's exactly. That's an example where you've got a conflict of interest And if it's free and people aren't paying for news, then you're the product. So you know, much like Facebook or Instagram. That's just how it works. So that's kind of the first thing. It's just business.

Speaker 1: 30:31

It is just business, and you know, literally they're just monetizing your eyeballs. And so if you think, and then the next kind of layer is how do these things make money? They require corporate sponsors. Okay, so at the end of the day, if nobody's paying, like you understand the incentives, so they're not necessarily to treat this kind of secondary. So that's, i guess, the first thing. The second thing is then people would gravitate to various publications depending on their political ideology.

Speaker 1: 31:00

So for example, none is very work. It's very work. It is what it is. And I could immediately tell that I was out. And you know, there were a couple of weird signals, like when you do a little questionnaire in the beginning of like, it's like a, you know, he has 10 questions about you to introduce you to the team via Slack. And the one was like who do you like to be in a lift with? And I had to think really hard because I know, okay, if I say this, this is how I'll be perceived. And I want to say Joe Rogan, he's my boy, but I couldn't say it. So it's like who is someone who I love, but it's tolerable from the leftists? And I was like Richard Javais love him. So that's the kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 33:46

So the people there all have groupthink and they can't think differently. Unfortunately, they're there. And it's like you're part of a team And it's like, okay, i'm on team Bitcoin And if some guy should coin, i came in infiltrated and tried to push some message at a Bitcoin meetup but like, listen, man, this is not the forum. It's the same in the media. It's like I worked in a leftist organization and they all think the same. There's no room for diversity there, i've thought every other one, by the way.

Speaker 2: 34:13

I saw someone tweet and I nearly jumped in and said this when you mentioned having Bitcoin in your pronouns. I saw someone say the other day on Twitter that they didn't want to use pronouns in their bio. I don't think it was a social media profile, but I think it was like their intranet. Is that even a thing anymore? But their internal staff platform or whatever it was they had and there's a space for pronouns and everyone was told you must use pronouns And even that was just not okay And it's just like workplaces are just becoming so toxic. And you know, the reports that I read from Gallup, which is affiliated with the coaching I do, is like they do these polls of workplaces around the world and how people are feeling, and it's way up now into the 70% range of people that want hybrid or remote work. That's how high it's gone since experiencing the option And it makes you wonder, well, how much of that is because of toxic workplace culture, like things like that.

Speaker 1: 35:23

Yeah, it's funny, that thing you just described happened to me. Exactly that, no jokes.

Speaker 2: 35:29

So what you must use pronouns Well, okay, so some beta male.

Speaker 1: 35:36

I'm just, i'm very opinionated, so excuse me, but like some beta male in a cardigan from Melbourne, literally like a chick, and he comes out and he's like we all need to update our slack profiles And here are some guidelines. And then it was like all about the profiles and stuff, plus, stop with these silly characters, we need a real picture of you. So in my mind I was like fuck off, i'm not doing this. Okay, i had my laser eyes, like I do on Twitter, and I'm not changing any. I'm not doing putting a pronoun there.

Speaker 1: 36:06

And then some people had put, like their pronouns at the top And suddenly it was like you can imagine, sort of, amy Taylor, they, them, but then the they would cut off. And then it was like no, no, no, you're not putting the pronouns in the right place. So you think to yourself like, okay, this is actually happening And what's kind of strange is, and you know what's quite funny is, and this might be something. That's just something I thought about, but there is, i think, a correlation between woke and wanting to work more at home.

Speaker 2: 36:41

So you can sit in a keyboard warrior?

Speaker 3: 36:43

Yeah, i think so because you can be a bully. So like my boss was such a bully. But then when you spoke to us, like come, let's have a chat like a kitten, just like, really awkward like, but then like behind passive aggressive, passive aggressive copy this person, copy this thing, copy, you know.

Speaker 1: 37:05

I mean like it's this, it's this whole like written game And it's like that's how you roll. You're an online bully And that's how these folks who are operating So I, and funny enough, now what I'm doing is I'm in commercial real estate and I've attended a bunch of social events recently where you know it's like you've got to.

Speaker 1: 37:23

They were talking about like the workplace and workplace planning and all that kind of stuff, and people in Brisbane are more inclined to want to go into the office than people in Melbourne And, interestingly, like dramatically and I don't know if it's because of some sort of like they were locked in for so long, they just got so used to it, or if it's also because Melbourne is quite a lot more left, if you like.

Speaker 2: 37:47

So anyway, it's an interesting issue, But yeah yeah, the whole work sort of. you started this conversation by saying you lost part of yourself, and I think we say it all the time. but the Bitcoin community just really is like this family of people that have got so much in common, but so that's. therefore, it's got a bit of a culty reputation, but what fascinates me is and I need to get better at communicating it myself which, you know, speaking versus the written word is something I'm so passionate about, which is we'll go back to in a minute is why social media gets misconstrued. But you know people, the Bitcoin community is fundamentally a group of people that are passionate about the fact that money is broken and money touches every single human being. So it's I still have yet to figure out how to get better at communicating, just how important this is, because it's not like some hobby, that or some football team that you're just on a different team. we're talking about money, are you this effects? Yeah everyone.

Speaker 2: 38:53

It is the way we communicate. It is a way we fundamentally communicate. So what do you find?

Speaker 1: 38:59

is conversation.

Speaker 2: 39:01

That, because I'm passionate about talking and language and having in person is why I'm doing a podcast instead of a blog, because it's just so much healthier And I think we all need to be out there being, ideally, examples of people that are able to have healthy conversations that aren't threatening that aren't. I 100% understood your take on exchanges being shit-coined casinos or not Bitcoin only, and you absolutely have your reasons for that and it makes sense. But that's why we all need to be out there proving that even within this community, there are people that just so much more capable of having healthy conversations and we need to be doing that with so many things out there. But money does affect everybody. I don't care if you're for or against LGBTQ or pride, or against the transgender argument, or for or against blue, red, left, right, woke, not woke, doesn't matter. Money affects all of us.

Speaker 1: 39:56

You know, and it exacerbates all of those things.

Speaker 2: 39:59

If you're stressed about anything and you're also broke you're probably more stressed than the person who disagrees with you. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1: 40:08

I mean there's. There's a couple of things you say that are really interesting. So the one is that, like Twitter is not real life. What happens in social media and all these places is not real life. You know, like we have these mechanisms in real life to be able to see people's reactions. I don't know what the percentage is, but something like 70, 80, 90% of communication is non-verbal. So you know, it's so much gets lost if you're going to just try to type some sort of snotty response And you never know, like what that person's mindset is that day and that kind of thing. So yeah, i totally agree in that regard And I love having conversations.

Speaker 1: 40:42

That's why I don't write anymore, because I find it quite exhausting and long. This is so much more rewarding. It's a bit of back and forth And I do agree with you We need to be more. There needs to be more people in the community I've talked about the Bitcoin community here who are able to welcome people. So what I'm trying to do with my podcast is also trying to bring people across the bridge.

Speaker 1: 41:03

I don't want to just say you're an idiot, you shouldn't have done that. You're a DJ and get a grip. Okay, come back when you've done, you know, 150 hours of learning and then we'll talk. I'll let you into my club. That's just not how. That's not how you make this movement work. You want to have people that are welcoming, and what I'll say is that, generally, i was on the outside of Bitcoin for about a year and Twitter as an unknown, and then subsequently came out of the Bitcoin closet and started engaging in real life, and that's the game changer, because then you see, okay, these are real people making who are actually like really smart and are sincere, like serious people with integrity, like very high integrity people. So that, for me, was that's why I'm so bullish, and it's not because I saw stuff on Twitter or followed some chart.

Speaker 2: 41:50

It's so important as well. So I think, if there's anyone listening to, I think the majority of my audience are not yet Bitcoiners, because I've built an audience prior to being in Bitcoin And so I think you know people, especially personal friends, who see my business profile talking about Bitcoin and it's kind of a relatively new thing and it doesn't really. I've not done a very good job of tying it into why I do it or talk about it alongside what else I do, but I'm trying to refine that and the minute you see people in person that say tell me about Bitcoin and you're like what?

Speaker 2: 42:25

that is not a quick conversation, but I'm glad people at least want to at least say that, because for anyone who's listening, who has other friends, just keep asking, because we never get sick of talking about it. But ask the question. There's no such thing as a silly question. Don't be afraid to say whatever you need to say or ask because I think unfortunately that is a reality is that there's so much division about everything, people are so triggered and angry about everything that people don't want to get into some kind of serious conversation of substance, because what if I say the wrong thing and you just won't get? that in.

Speaker 2: 42:59

Bitcoin if you show an interest at any level. People that are in it will want to help you and get you over that bridge, and four hours later you'll still be there.

Speaker 1: 43:07

You're welcome, yes exactly, yeah, and you know what I've learned through kind of my orange-pilling efforts and I'm so far from being a finished product in terms of where I think I could be in terms of my pitch. But the first thing is I don't think it's worth pushing it on anybody. It's a total waste of time. The more you tell people they need Bitcoin, the more they shut their ears. So I think what I found is that the most the people who are sort of bit curious, if you want to use that word, those are the most interesting people because you can get them over.

Speaker 1: 43:40

The people who just think it's stupid internet money, they kind of you know, there's no way of trying to rationalize it. They've made an emotional decision, they put a block, they said no and, to answer an earlier question, i think what you were saying, like how does one talk to people about Bitcoin what I intend to do is just say, okay, bitcoin is money and it's the best money we've ever had. So that's the starting point. What is money? Money is a proxy for our energy. Okay, it's a stored energy. We expend finite resources, that we have, time, energy, we don't get any more time and in exchange, we do that voluntarily with other people. In exchange we get money and we then try and save that money so that in the future we can then live off of that money and when our bodies can no longer expend the energy.

Speaker 1: 46:21

Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly, and and and. So inflation is effectively theft in the sense that it is. It is stealing energy away from you. You've plugged your time into something, you've received money in exchange and yet, through no fault of your own, that is losing in purchasing power. You need to accumulate more and more of it to buy the same amount of stuff each year it doesn't sound like yeah it doesn't sound fair off the bat.

Speaker 1: 46:55

You think to yourself, okay, the more you earn of the stuff, actually it's not. You have to keep earning more and more and more to be able to buy the same sort of things. Yeah, and I guess that's just the beginning of it. I then will talk to people about how we arrived at paper money or fear currency. At startage we started bartering, yeah, and then, once we got into bigger tribes, we started saying, okay, we need to agree on something. We can't just, you know, swap apples for wood or whatever it might be. And slowly but surely, we arrived at gold. And then eventually it became technology had progressed so far where we were doing deals with people in foreign continents that it was a real pain in the arse and it's high security risk to get shittler's of gold across the ocean. So what we did is we just said you know, you're trustworthy, you know, just make a note here 100 pounds of gold and piece of paper yeah, and then they started creating more paper than there's gold and that's the story.

Speaker 1: 47:53

So I like I try and plant that, but I'm not going to pretend like I'm very good because like I've got some people over the line that way. But yeah, it's doesn't work, doesn't resonate with everyone, people.

Speaker 2: 48:05

People care about themselves, and as do we all, and I think it's always important to highlight the fact that having this digital, decentralized form of money it's removing the human emotion from money. It's removing the ability for human tendencies and very normal tendencies to get involved. I mean, any one of us given enough money, even now. Someone tweeted today about who do you think would, who's a bitcoiner? that wouldn't change something if, even if they were offered all the bitcoin or something, and it's like I don't think anyone human being is above, being persuaded, bribed for their price, and that's the whole point is that we need to get it out of the hands of any one entity, because that's what humans do you know.

Speaker 1: 49:02

So it's, it's in all of us, amy. That's the point. We pretend like we all. These are bad guys. These are good guys. We've got good and bad runs through each of us, and bitcoin is a rules based system as opposed to a ruler based system, and so I'd rather trust code and maths than I would trust people, because people are people and people created this, knowing that you know it's being created by humans, factoring your philosophy and factoring in all the stuff that you said you studied at uni right in in an alongside law.

Speaker 2: 49:42

So when was when? so it was 2020 for you, as well then the pandemic and joining adults, because you were already in bitcoin. But it was the mainstream media, the culture at your workplace that kind of really nailed it down for you well, actually it was.

Speaker 1: 49:59

It was I was doing this financial planning diploma just for the hell of it and was doing a lot of studying, and then came across bitcoin, and so I looked at it from a macro perspective, and not everyone will resonate with that. So I was like I've been always interested in geopolitics and history and all that kind of stuff, and so I went down this sort of YouTube rabbit hole because we all had time and I also happened to not be working full-time at that point in time, so I was actually quite blessed in that sense so so so.

Speaker 1: 50:33

So there's, there's lots of things that have happened that at the time we're already challenging. You know, i'd prefer at the time, i would have preferred to be a full-time employee.

Speaker 1: 50:42

But yeah, that would be probably better, but yeah exactly you're in cash flow, you know if that's too hard to ask for so, but that's sort of when it first started and I never would have gotten to media but for bitcoin, because it was the only place I knew that I could actually get in, because commercial real estate is like very much hands-on. It's like no one's going to be hiring somebody remotely, you know, to do like property management. You got to go there, you got to sort out because a leak or whatever the problem is. So yeah, yeah, so I guess that's kind of the. That's kind of.

Speaker 1: 51:16

When I became, i guess, a bitcoin in 2020, it was like the third time I'd like heard of it, and prior to that I very much had, because my dad had a childhood counseling. He taught me a lot about finance, very much like very much conservative finance principles around. You know compound interest the eighth wonder of the world and you know you don't, don't, yeah, so like don't, don't interrupt it unnecessarily. And you know you, you're not time in the market, not timing the markets. Don't try. Think you're smart and you can trade. That's pointless. You want to be an investor, not a trader. Investors have long-term time horizons. It's gonna go up, it's gonna go down. You try and pick stocks, you're gonna fail, you're gonna lose just pick a basket.

Speaker 1: 52:00

Advice that parents got all of it, so I was like a very fortunate.

Speaker 1: 52:05

Yeah, yes, so that's why I was like saying I've had all these like different blessings. Of course, i've gone way far now on the risk curve because my dad's still very much like now. He's in like late 60s and he's in wealth preservation mode. So he's like, yeah, no, i don't need much bitcoin. So he's bought a bit, but it's like not even a tiny fraction of like. I'm like come on, man, just do do one percent for me. But he's like but I'm trying once.

Speaker 1: 52:30

I've already know yeah, no, i get that yeah, and it's just like I think from his perspective, he just wants to look off to what he has and he tries to stick to what he knows, and he knows retail. And like, he said something to me the other day which blew my mind, which was like you know, they, a bunch of them are working on this pet business at the moment, a private equity deal and within five years, they would have done 40x their money. So you think to me, you think to yourself, like I try to explain to him bitcoin and he's like listen, listen, i have control over this, this thing that I know how to make. It's like an engine. I've been doing retail for the last 30 years. I know how to make it work. I'm not interested in this tech and it's like okay, fair enough.

Speaker 2: 53:15

I mean, i see what you're coming from, but he's in a position where he's also looked after himself, he's okay regardless, i think when you're a millennial or you're, you know, you kind of look at it and go we're entering midlife or we're in midlife.

Speaker 2: 53:29

If you, you know right now, if we're halfway through our lives, we're assuming we'll live till 80, i think, all things considered, hopefully, health issues aside, we will actually live quite a bit longer than that. So you look at it and go. I kind of I have a very high risk tolerance, but it's only because I'm looking at it, going well, to stick with the system and not have bitcoin, we're screwed anyway, unless you've already done exceptionally well for people in our age group, unless you've already got quite a few properties or assets in other classes, significant amounts, which most of us don't because we didn't get that education. You know, my mum retired, lost a husband, was down to one pension, and I looked at it and went you literally can't afford to live off this and that was when I was like so sad we do then.

Speaker 2: 54:17

So I, my risk tolerance was always high. I've been in business for myself for about a decade and it's like well, what choice do we have? and people think it's all. You know, you're being reckless. And the gamblers and someone quoted that at me recently like the gamblers addiction, where you just keep losing so you put more in. It's like no, this is like the no-brainer option now you're right and I mean.

Speaker 1: 54:44

I promise no, it's really not. It's not working for the vast majority of people, it's not working for billions of people and it's usually the people who have assets and who are doing fine. That would say that you know, put yourself in a millennial shoes and let's not say, like I'll be the first to admit, i've been very blessed in many ways, not only through my dad's, you know, kind of not just coming from like a relatively well-off family, but also all the education there and financial like wisdom that he's bestowed upon me. So, that said, i'm, like I'm so far from being like financially free, like I'm no Indian, you know, i mean nothing like that and I look ahead and I think to myself okay, if you're, if you're somebody who doesn't own assets and let's just use property, because everyone loves property, whether in the UK or in Australia or also in the US.

Speaker 1: 55:40

Property ran really hard from 2020 and, depending where you were like I'm in Brisbane it was 46% from the bottom to the top. Now think about what that means for the future and for young people. Wages are stagnant globally because, yeah, like I think what we're finding is that, you know, increasingly the asset prices are becoming completely out of reach for the average person. I mean, you know it used to be and I know this for property is like it used to be like, say, three or four times your annual median household income and you could do with one guy or girl like literally working full-time.

Speaker 1: 56:27

The other person could, i don't want to say sure, because yeah yeah, exactly today, you need two people working, two wage earners, and you're now looking at, depending where you are in the world, you know, eight to ten or eleven or twelve. It's not available for some of the most expensive places. So how are these people expected to remain optimistic? and so that's why we see so much populism and social unrest and unhappiness and division. And then they, and then what the, the people who have assets will do and this is what I said at the at the mainstream media place was listen, it's not about left or right. Actually, it's about really essentialize entities. It's top versus bottom.

Speaker 1: 57:11

And what the people at the top do is they get us involved in petty squabbles around gender, left versus right issues, all these kind of little petty things, and meanwhile they're playing the long game and they are the wealth, the wealth owners, and we're just the plebs fighting over scraps. And what berkween does is it enables us to take something. We've basically front running wall street. I mean, we've all been front running black rock, the biggest, you know, asset manager on earth, and and this is the only opportunity humanity has to be able to acquire property that is unconversatable, that is deflationary and it's the asymmetric opportunity of a lifetime. It's like investing in the internet in the mid 90s, and it's the opposite of a gamble yeah, i think that's almost.

Speaker 2: 58:03

That's almost a perfect place to kind of wrap it up, because I feel like we'll just get into either repeating ourselves or making it too technical and yeah everyone has their own reasons for want, needing to, or being forced to, pay attention.

Speaker 2: 58:18

The biggest one at the moment is rising cost of living. I come from a background, or my most recent background I'm surrounded by entrepreneurs. In this hustle mindset and the mindset of it, doesn't matter what's going on in the world. You can rise yourself up and, yes, you can. There is so much opportunity on the internet to create an income and to scale an income and to do better than the average, and that's great. But not everybody wants to do that.

Speaker 2: 58:40

Some people want to just have a job that fits their lifestyle, that makes them feel part of something they're not. They don't want to be a visionary or a leader, or they're not naturally that way and and they're happy to earn x amount and and be able to plan the future around that. And, like you say, the average, that is the masses, that is the most, that is the majority of people. And I think it's just really important that those people who do want entrepreneurship, freedom to to hustle and go harder look at why they want that, because it's usually about freedom and it's like well then, this money is made for you. And that's where I get frustrated, because I am in this sort of world of people that like it doesn't matter, don't worry about the world, don't worry about the world. Did you just focus on you and you can? you can do whatever you want, and I agree with that, but sometimes, like the empath kind of strikes and you go no, this is still wrong, something.

Speaker 2: 59:33

So big as money that affects everybody, especially if I'm someone who, if you are going to be an entrepreneur or work for yourself or or create something whether it's podcast or you know you're creating, you might be providing jobs. You therefore need to factor in the real world, like I know so many people who are just they're doing okay, but their pay rise, their pay hasn't gone up with cost of living, and then it creates tension, like you say, the unrest, the tension, the division. It's just. There's the root cause and that's what I'm trying to get better at communicating around wherever it's affecting someone like my.

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

My partner has a child in another country, comes with a wealth of challenge and had a tumultuous breakup and financial settlements and money, and you know there's a lot of downstream brokenness that isn't working. That just keeps people just about trading water so that they have to stay in a job and have to keep paying tax. The choice, the optionality just taken away, happiness zip. So yeah, we're on the same page. I know you get it. That's why I'm talking to you, but what just?

Speaker 2: 1:00:46

I always like to wrap up like you. You're clearly a big personality. You know who you are. You were very blessed with parents who instilled a lot of clearly self-esteem and the willingness to have your own opinion about things, and you answered money. So you've obliterated the questions I normally ask anyone. But what would you tell your younger self say, graduating, going into uni?

Speaker 2: 1:01:11

any advice you would give your younger self about having opinions, being you and anything about money and just buy bitcoin 10 20 years ago, because you couldn't no, no, no, no I would say, let's imagine bitcoin does not around.

Speaker 1: 1:01:25

So I would say, listen, bro, back yourself and you. You've got incredible potential and people a lot of people, like, have said that before, but you've don't let yourself doubt. Get it on top of you, because that's been a key thing throughout my life, like I've had these periods of self-doubt so that so that'd be like the the first thing. The second thing I'd say is, like put aside more of your own income. I should have saved more, whether it's 10, 20, 30%. Now I do it in bitcoin and I do do it in bitcoin, but I should have been smarter. You know, like I did three skeeses in the US and I didn't save the bloody cents and sure you had a good time that kind of thing is.

Speaker 1: 1:02:12

It was a bit silly and you're like, i had wonderful experiences, so I suppose what I would also. The last thing I'd say is like the all the lessons you've learned in all lessons in life are actually necessarily challenging, and it's not really what happens to you, but it's how you respond. And so everything that's happened to me thus far, all of it, all the challenges, and I sound like I've sort of been walking on diamonds and I've been blessed so much, like I've had so many untold issues in my life, like many people, and I'm so grateful for all of them, every single one of them. And and so I would say to my younger self listen, bro, all of these things are going to turn you into a warrior and so back yourself back yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:02:58

I love it. I love it, perfect and I would encourage everybody. I'm actually actually going to link the episode that you did with Michael because the last five minutes of your chat with him and he I didn't know who Michael was until we went to Bitcoin live your chat with him. The final five minutes where you got into the conversation about backing yourself was amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:03:20

I just played it before we got on, got on tonight because, it was just it's so good and even if people just want to skip to that last five minutes where he's like your job is just to be you and get as much out of you as you can. I was like amen, you are speaking my language, so, yes, everyone go check out Dale's podcast. I'll link it. Thank you so much. Good to meet you and then hopefully we will do it in person soon, because you're you're not that far away yes, thank you so much, amy.

Speaker 1: 1:03:49

This has been a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: 1:03:51

I really enjoy what you're doing and, yeah, thanks for the opportunity to chat today hello, my friend, as someone who's not the best at finishing the things they start, but thank you so much for making it to the end of this podcast. I hope you found it helpful. Maybe it piqued your curiosity on something new or even just made you smile for a few seconds. If any of those things apply here, then all my regular tech challenges and tantrums are well worth it to get this to you. If you heard anything at all that you think could help just even one other human being. There's a couple of things you can do that I would really and truly appreciate.

Speaker 2: 1:04:31

Firstly, you can follow or subscribe wherever you're listening. On most podcast platforms, this is usually just a case of hitting a follow button or a plus sign on the main show page. This means you'll never miss an episode, which is hopefully a win-win for us both. Secondly, if you're feeling really generous, you can leave me a five-star rating or review wherever you're listening. And lastly, feel free to share an episode with a friend on social media. With any thoughts, feedback, suggestions or even criticism. It's okay, i can take it. Just tag me using the handle at Amy Taylor says to make sure I see it, and can thank you personally any or all of these things genuinely mean more human beings see and hear these conversations. So again, thank you for being here and helping me with my mission with BU Get Paid to help as many people as possible know themselves no money and be happy. See you next time.