Be You. Get Paid.

#008 Anxiety for Men w/ Dr Baz Traill

• Amy Taylor (& friends!) • Episode 8

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"We're having a societal problem where - in the UK - it's been shown that 8million adults are taking an SSRI - so over 10% of the population are having to take medication for their anxiety and depression. It's fine if it works but that's a huge number and it suggests a bigger problem with society..."
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Dr Baz is a family physician with an interest in treating anxiety conditions. He has authored and released a book series called ‘Anxiety for Men’, drawn from his experience in family practice, and witnessing the mental health challenges faced by society during the Covid years.

The Traill family made the big decision in the spring of 2020, to sell and leave everything they knew and go on an adventure living life on the road. They travelled around Europe with their son and pet cat, working and home-schooling from their motorhome - finding a new sense of freedom learning to be present, self-aware and resilient.

This journey became the inspiration for the creation of Hidden Gateway - supporting people in finding balance in today’s hectic world, using a combination of medical perspective and holistic insight.

Baz was drawn to Bitcoin after taking a stance against lockdowns, with the currency offering a solution to excess money printing and centralised health control.

Find and read a sample of Baz's book 'Anxiety For Men' on Amazon: amzn.eu/8WTtpuL

Follow and connect with Baz on Instagram

Visit his website: https://www.hiddengateway.org/about-1
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Speaker 1:

But we're having a kind of societal problem where in the UK it's been shown that 8 million 8 million adults are taking an SSRI, so over 10% of the population are having to take medication for their anxiety and depression, which I mean it's fine if it works, but that's a huge number. That's a huge number and it suggests almost a bigger problem with society.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just a bit yeah.

Speaker 1:

In family practice. You see the trend. So you see the same people coming over and over again. So that was the reason I kind of wrote the book, because I wanted to connect. It was almost like if I could sit down with a man and talk for like three hours and just say, look, this is kind of how it is.

Speaker 2:

Well, hello humans. Thanks so much for tuning into the BU Get Paid podcast. I am your host, amy Taylor, and I have one goal by being in your ears To explore as many conversations and perspectives as possible on stuff we did not learn in school, you know, stuff that would have actually helped a lot more of us thrive, rather than just survive as grown-ups in an often challenging and ever-changing world. As the title might suggest, this includes anything involved with knowing ourselves, understanding money and generally anything that might offer some insight into how we can all be happier humans. With that in mind, wherever you're listening, you'll find links to some of the best resources I have personally found to help with all of those things. Sometimes I'll talk about these in a bit more detail, and I want you to know I will only ever recommend products, services and companies that I am a customer or user of myself.

Speaker 2:

Now, real grown-ups here, and as such, you'll possibly hear the occasional use of grown-up language. More importantly, anything discussed here is personal opinion and intended for conversational and educational purposes only, and should not be taken as financial or investment advice. Housekeeping done, let's get into what I hope is some helpful chat. Welcome, baz Trail. Do I call you, dr Baz. You are a doctor, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i am a doctor. Yeah, just call me Baz Baz is fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay, cool. I said before, if you can see a foot, it's my partner, christian. He's just listening in because I thought it was a topic that he would have some thoughts on. He's not a particularly noisy vocal person, but I'm sure I might cast my eye across and see if he's got anything to say, if you bring anything up that I reckon is relevant, because I think you will.

Speaker 2:

So, thank you so much for reaching out, because your email excuse me, when I tweeted about wanting to talk to more Bitcoiners, your email just jumped out at me because I feel like your story, which I'll get you to share from 2020 onwards, was exactly when I was kind of going down this rabbit hole, both with Bitcoin and everything else that was going on in the world in 2020.

Speaker 2:

And I tweeted recently as well that I was looking back at some of my YouTube videos from other stuff that I've done in the digital space, and I was so on the bandwagon with everything like why is everyone out? Stay at home, stay at home. And I was very much not awake at that point. I don't want to refer to myself as woke and get into that conversation, but it was well sort of into the latter half of 2020 that I began to sort of go well, hang on, this isn't making sense anymore. So your email, when you said you'd left the UK, i think you said you said in your email you'd left medicine in 2020. So give us a quick introduction to yourself and what your sort of career history is and what happened in 2020? Because I think that's a really interesting story.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'm Baz. Yeah, I'm 42 years old. I'm from Scotland, raised in Glasgow. Yeah, thanks for having me here. It's fantastic. Yeah, I think I got to know you. Yeah, it was around that late 2020 time, wasn't it? in the cryptocurrency forums and one exciting time, You know, Bitcoin was kind of taking off.

Speaker 2:

I can't believe it.

Speaker 1:

That's still talk to people about it. It's like, oh man, you should have been there. So, yeah, i'm a doctor, i'm a family physician, general practitioner. So I went into medical school and when I was 17 years old and then I qualified around 2005. And, yeah, did a range of emergency jobs, medical jobs and then qualified as an actual family physician, or what would also be known as like a general practitioner around 2011. So that's been for the last 10 years.

Speaker 1:

that's what I did, and dealing with patients, dealing with emergencies, always had an interest in mental health as well. So the reason I'm kind of doing a podcast here at the moment is that I wrote a book series called Anxiety for Men. I've got it here. It's kind of got the title a doctor's practical guide for managing your mental health. So I was kind of interested in anxiety conditions and just the sheer volume of people that were coming through the door with anxiety. And then, yeah, like a lot of people, 2020 just stopped me in my tracks and I'm sure we'll talk about this later. But I decided to kind of move on and leave medicine for a time, along with my wife, because we needed to homeschool our child And basically we're kind of living protest against kind of lockdown at that time.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, Can I well have to get personal if we're going to go here? So in protest of lockdowns, in protest, were you? in protest of the COVID jab?

Speaker 1:

It was just, it was lockdowns, primarily Right. So at that time it was you know, all the things that were happening were dealing up to lockdown. So, like that was, that was the kind of main focus of our protest, because it was just destroying so many lives at that time. And you know, due to my experiences with COVID as well which we could talk about later as well It was something that we just wanted to show our we have a kind of living protest against it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and presumably there was a sense of adventure as well, because you didn't you pack up and could you caravan or campervan around Europe, or was that what you said you did?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so I guess I guess let me start from the start here, because, yeah, i was in the thick of it. I was working in an urgent care centre at the time which is like it's like a kind of emergency department. So there was a lot of, there was a lot of fear around COVID And you know, you could tell that the lockdowns were coming. And what was happening to me at that time was the urgent care centre was being dismantled.

Speaker 1:

So I was working at the emergency. It was the emergency department was going to be amalgamated with the department I was working with. So it was kind of quite freaky at the time because every day something was disappearing And you know, computers were disappearing and we're all getting ready for the big COVID thing. Then I think at that time there was a really good article by there was a professor called John Ionides, who's like one of the most cited scientists in medicine, and he said you know, one of the bottom lines is that we we don't know how long that social distancing measures and lockdowns can be maintained without major consequences to the economy, society and mental health, and kind of locking down the world could have potentially tremendous social and financial consequences and be totally irrational. So you know, as I was being kind of wheeled out of the Surgeon Care Department, i was saying to my colleagues look, this could be a really big mistake. This, you know, and because I had such an interest in mental health at that time, You can see why.

Speaker 1:

I felt that it was it was the wrong thing to do. It was the wrong thing to do. So you know, at March and April which was a very scary time, and COVID was quite a serious illness By summer I was just ready to go We sensed that there were going to be more lockdowns And we were about to sell our house anyway. So we sold our house And we decided we could probably homeschool our son through this, And we had a camper van on our driveway. So I like, should we just, should we just take off?

Speaker 2:

Should we just go And they're like yeah, what you've made a decision ahead of what a lot of people are now deciding to do, having gone through it and realized life's too short. Cool, that gives me a lot more context than you know, your short email. But going back to what you were doing anyway, and I guess your main as a marketer, i would say avatar, or the people that you help most. I guess why your email jumped out to me is I geek out on reports and data about people being unhappy And I work with Gallup. I get a lot of their reports And, even without looking at statistics, i think it's quite commonly known that men in their the 35 to 50 range one of the top demographics for mental health conditions, suicide like it's quite a depressing statistic. How many men of that age like I guess your age as well you're in that demographic. So what? what sort of inspired you to write a book called Anxiety for Men? What were you seeing prior to COVID anyway that got you to focus on that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i think it was just the trend. The trend was towards, so say, in a day I see 40 people, 40 people coming in with various aches and pains in a day. So the trend was that I was seeing more kind of mental health conditions, and particularly men as well. I mean, i'd always had an interest in psychiatry. Anyway, when I was a medical student I really enjoyed my psychiatry block, but you know, i was really naive at that time. It was like you remember Frasier, do you remember the program Frasier about the kind of neurotic psychiatrist You know?

Speaker 1:

so I used to speak to the psychiatrist and be like, is it like Frasier, you know, and you know what's in there of his breakdown? I used to ask them and then, but they were dealing. They were dealing with schizophrenics and people with bipolar disorders, so but but in in general practice and family practice I tend to see people with what we'd call neuroses. So these are people who have mental health suffering such as anxiety and depression, but perhaps they don't need to see a psychiatrist, they don't need to go to hospital. They haven't had a kind of radical break with reality, but the numbers of people presenting with anxiety and depression were going up and up And a lot of these people also were needing to take kind of medication to ease their suffering as well. So I don't know, do you know SSRI? do you know what have you heard of an SSRI before?

Speaker 1:

No So that's like the most commonly prescribed like anti-depressant, anti-anxiety medication, like, i think, in the Western world, and it stands for serotonin specific reuptake inhibitor, which is quite mild at all.

Speaker 2:

The idea is that you've got a group of medications that would be different type.

Speaker 1:

Yeah that's it.

Speaker 1:

So they came out about 30 years ago. so Prozac was like the first big SSRI. And, yeah, serotonin is a chemical in the blood and it is thought that this drug has an impact on serotonin which eases anxiety and depression. But we're having a kind of societal problem where in the UK it's been shown that 8 million adults are taking an SSRI, so over 10% of the population are having to take medication for their anxiety and depression, which I mean it's fine if it works, but that's a huge number And it suggests almost a bigger problem with society.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just a bit.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, just a bit So. And then for men, i just felt that there was a lack of information for men And they were also presenting. They were coming to me quite late on. So because anxiety is a lot of men were feeling it was a sign of weakness. They would rather kind of just push for their symptoms or just try and ignore it altogether. A lot of them also they got to get into a habit of just self fixing and self medicating, which, again, self fixing, is fine. So if you're doing a breathing exercise or a meditation exercise, that's you know, there's so much online information out there anyway that you know, these are the things that this is very sensible, it shows initiative.

Speaker 1:

But what often happens is that men will start taking something to soothe their anxiety. So they might say, take a valium, they might buy that on the street just to calm down their symptoms, and then as the day goes on they're starting to feel quite low with it. So they take something to stimulate themselves again, like you know, like a high dose caffeine drink or even cocaine, or they might go to the gym and just kind of try and power through. So these things in family practice, you see the trend, so you see the same people coming over and over again. So that was the reason I kind of wrote the book, because I wanted to connect. It was almost like if I could sit down with a man and talk for like three hours and just say, look, this is, this is kind of how it is.

Speaker 2:

So did you feel that obviously you felt too many people were on medication and it, in your eyes, was that just avoiding the root cause? I mean, obviously there's societal stuff, which we'll get on to, but did you feel that, just that you were seeing a lot of people that with, i guess, a form of counselling and talking to you and working through other methods, could be avoiding medication Because it has played.

Speaker 1:

I think it was something that.

Speaker 2:

Medicine has its place right. I'm not anti anything without research and you know proof. But I just think we've gone through the last three years where a lot of us are questioning okay, well, it has its place, but where's its place and where do you get the truth?

Speaker 1:

Oh, totally, totally. I know exactly where you're coming from as well, because I don't want to go to the other side and go oh, all medications, crap for all traditional medicines crap, you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but I think that's exactly the same thing that you're hitting as well. Is that like I'm frustrated and frustrated with the way things are, with the traditional health, that we have so many people taking medication, but at the same time, i don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and go, ah it's, everything is crap and nobody should be taking this. But yeah, that's the problem that I keep coming up with. Anyway, it's not a bad medication SSRIs A lot of them at a low dose. A lot of people cope with it quite well and they come off it, and a lot of people are actually unwell and need to be taking something just to divide the stability you know we even get people, you know, there's a small group of people who say you know what I really, I'm a better person on this medication, i'm just going to take it permanently And that's.

Speaker 1:

That's fine. But then on the other side we have people who struggle to come off the medication, the withdrawal, and then there's this kind of larger group of people I would call it the SSRI trap where they kind of feel better on it but they feel a bit emotionally blunted and they don't really know how to get off it again. So they kind of just go through life on this medication, not in a state of extreme unwellness but at the same time not feeling like they're being their kind of most authentic self.

Speaker 2:

No experience in any other emotions either. Yeah, okay, that makes total sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, they're just kind of flat lining through it. So I was reading there was a sample of your book on Amazon And I think it must be the introduction and it's unknown panic sufferer, so presumably you'd see anyone across the spectrum. you'd be some some people reporting full blown panic attacks at times. And the first, this unknown panic sufferer quote that you've got in your book, is every day is a struggle. Even when I'm at my best, my anxiety is always with me and panic taps me on the shoulder a few times a day. on my good days I can brush it off. on my bad days I just want to stay in bed like that. That hit me in the guts in regard to stories.

Speaker 2:

I've heard from lots of men. I know I've got a few mates who have been through burnout And I know that Okay.

Speaker 2:

This one's definitely experienced that in the past and was, you know, taking a mild medication. Yeah, i can imagine that is if you could go and ask a lot of men, and it's not just men. I'm sure plenty of women are suffering from this as well. But and we'll get onto possible causes that we see in society, one being money, men, especially if we, if we are looking at men, you know, this is not to say that women don't get stressed and have other things that they're challenged with and dealing with. Of course they are, but I do think one of the big things in society now and I believe a huge part of it is, you know is is money and just broken money. Forcing people to work harder, that's not, you know, that's not the answer. And men, especially if they see themselves as a provider, working harder is not the answer.

Speaker 2:

But you've now got in a family situation, both partners working, and life is hard life is chaotic, especially if there's kids involved, and it's just, there's just no let up And I think men especially.

Speaker 2:

We're all still conditioned to think we've got certain roles and fundamentally we do and we function well as opposite sexes when we have roles. But the world has just got to this point where it's. It's not possible for a lot of people. So were you finding that a lot of men were just coming in and you said they were pushing through? but I know that our experience, or what Christian shared with me, is you know the, what choices there. I have to work, i have to provide, and my job is stressful and I get home and there's more stress to deal with. You know, was that a common thing? I'm guessing it was.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a common thing and I agree with you for men, well, i think for women as well, that issue of money, it's always there It's a natural male thing.

Speaker 2:

The issue is old.

Speaker 1:

The issue is old as time. But you know, if life is moving at such a pace that you can't keep up with it and your head is full of worries or you're taking in a load of stress in your body, then yeah, something's gonna give. Something usually gives.

Speaker 2:

And yeah definitely work.

Speaker 1:

Burnout work related burnout is definitely becoming a very hot topic. I have friends who've gone through work burnout and especially in the medical profession as well. You know there's a high rate of burnout, alcoholism, self harm, suicide. Yes, it's very sad. It's very sad What I? the aim of the book is that I call it a practical guide, so you start with. I find that a lot of men start with the basics, so they have done the breathing technique. Have you heard of the vagus nerve before?

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. So everyone knows, I like to gauge people with it, because sometimes people like no In regards to breathing. People know about the kind of vagus nerve exercises, they know about kind of basic meditation or they've used head space or something like that. So they've gone through that and then they hit the wall. They hit the wall. So the work is still coming, the family issues are still coming, the kind of reality distortion of going through this kind of debt crisis.

Speaker 2:

What did you say? a lot.

Speaker 1:

What was that?

Speaker 2:

My partner uses the expression treading water a lot, both in regard to money but also, i guess, just life. it's like I'm okay, but there's like this underlying fear of waiting for the next thing to kind of push you over the edge, and that I mean it's manageable but it's like you can't live, like it's not a sustainable way to live, because it's that slow kind of chipping away at your strength, your resilience, and it's like, okay, we can manage, but the thought of something else is just like. I can't handle that right now.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, absolutely, and it's like so if you're doing these treading water therapies. But then maybe the person has reached a state where they're like what am I doing? you know what? why? what sort of person? why am I the person who's doing this thing to myself? you know, how do I escape this? And I call that a kind of deeper inquiry. So some people, you know they want to make the leap into, you know, investigating how they can be more authentic or how they can escape the rat race or find the skills inside themselves, know themselves better.

Speaker 1:

I was watching one of your podcasts yesterday. There was the energetic medicine healer and she was talking about this sort of thing. She was talking about it a lot. So this book is the kind of, it's the kind of middle ground. So it's like it's difficult to make that jump into deeper inquiry the why, why am I this person? why am I making these decisions for myself and therefore how can I escape? So my book is all about kind of finding that mind-body consensus. So if you're getting a lot of panic symptoms or anxiety symptoms, it's about kind of developing the skill of reaching a certain state of awareness of your mind and body so that you can kind of engage with your symptoms, the sensations and the thoughts that you're getting in a more practical manner.

Speaker 2:

Tangible so that you can give it language or.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, so you take the time to practice, that you're able to articulate what you're going through better, and that slows down your body, it slows down your mind, it slows down your nervous system, the ability to kind of direct focus on these sensations and thoughts rather than the experience that you're having in the outside world. Yeah, yeah, and it's just that kind of middle practical ground where it's kind of building on mindfulness techniques, somatic experiencing techniques, the work that the old psychoanalysts used to do, and there's an Australian GP called Claire Weeks who wrote a book in the 60s as well and she talked about this ability to engage with your nervous system very well as well. So if you can go through these techniques and practice and cultivate this awareness, then you're ready for the deeper inquiry. you can start to listen to your body and your mind more and yeah.

Speaker 1:

I call that the inner compass in the book, which again is an idea that you're this kind of psychological, authentic whole.

Speaker 2:

I think that's really good because I don't know, i'm being a bit judgy, but I feel like my partner and a lot of men probably are touching on the edge of what I call the woo-woo stuff and we've built our own cold plunge with a chest freezer and we both love it. I'm definitely higher up the scale of my woo-woo and I'm a bit more spiritual but, I think there's probably a lot of men that are curious.

Speaker 2:

But it needs to be tangible. It's like coaching. For me it's a growing space. Personal development has never been more normal, but everyone's on a different journey and everyone starts at a different point. And I like the strengths coaching because it is tangible. But I've done a lot of very deep inquiry, somatic stuff with different coaches and I know that a lot of the people I speak to just are not ready for that yet. But meditation is very normalised now. So I think this is the kind of tool that a lot of people, not just men, would find useful, especially from someone as credible as a GP who's had the audacity to walk away from the industry.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's the first time I've not been called credible in a long time.

Speaker 2:

Sure, yeah, because you had the audacity to have your own mind and think about it yourself. The other thing that I noticed as well with your framework, or the six, because I only saw the sample. I was being a tight ass in the time that we had to prepare.

Speaker 2:

I will get the book, but your six? in the beginning it reminded me, in terms of practicality and tangibility, of actually taking an exercise, i guess, or seeing some steps to work through. It reminded me of the seven habits of highly effective people. You've got six steps, but I was like, oh, that's similar and I quickly googled the summary of it and it is. It makes total sense understand your situation, alter it with a new habit, engage with the feelings and the panic.

Speaker 2:

Number three, number four don't feed the beast. I love that And that's hard. I think that's probably the hardest one, because when you don't know what the underlying issue is you've got work, you've got kids, you've got partner, maybe you're struggling financially don't know where you're at in life midlife crisis. What am I doing? who am I that is feeding it, but you've also got to sit with it in order to get to the bottom of it. That's tricky. I think that's because it's uncomfortable, and then prepare for disappointment and setbacks and tough days and then make that further inquiry.

Speaker 2:

The other thing that came to mind when I was reading the six steps I'm like this is what I say to people all the time. That is like starting a business. That is all the steps you go through when you start a business and it's why I say to people with this, you know, with B, you get paid solo partnership. Even if you stay in your job and you just have something on the side that lights you up creatively, it is the best therapy. And you start to see these parallels with every single area of life requires the same framework, the same steps, whether it's your health your relationships, a business, your work, life has these steps and there's no getting away from it.

Speaker 1:

I think so yeah, i think definitely having a step-wise framework is useful. It's like you say in business, if you just jump into step six and you kind of like pump all your money into the property or something like that, you know.

Speaker 2:

And it's got no foundation. I was saying to my wife we should just buy a long dread.

Speaker 1:

You know, I was saying we should buy a long dread and she's like, okay, that's crazy.

Speaker 2:

I don't know anything about washing machines, but let's do that.

Speaker 1:

Neither do I No.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, it's great to have a framework. That's something I struggled with for a long time. But just to sort of change direction a little bit, tell us how you came into Bitcoin. What was your discovery moment? an orange-pilling moment?

Speaker 1:

And then we'll come back to it. It was around the same time. Yeah, yeah, it was around the same time as you, i think. Well, no, 2018, maybe It's funny. yeah, because I fell into the shiny new thing category. So I was online, i was interested in cryptocurrency and there was this coin and people were saying, oh, this is great, this is better than Bitcoin. This one's going to kill Bitcoin. It's to do with cities and it's a token where all the appliances in your smart city can talk to each other, so your toaster will talk to your kettle.

Speaker 1:

How useful Yeah yeah, i feel for it. I feel for it, yeah, yeah. So I was like that sounds great, that sounds like the future. I'm going to buy some of that. And then you had that little voice.

Speaker 2:

And you're like please learn from my mistakes, but they have to go through it themselves. It's true, It's true.

Speaker 1:

But I had that little voice in my head that said you know, just hold onto it for a couple of years, see if it fails, whatever. I didn't mortgage the house or anything you know, so just put a bit in it. And it did nothing. For two years It did absolutely nothing. And I was following the community and I thought this, this is just nonsense, absolute nonsense. So, but then, as time went on and you're following social media, you start I was becoming more aware of what bit corners were saying and their kind of attitude towards the crypto space And yeah, so it just kind of solidified for me in 2020. I had that moment where in the UK, everyone was being furloughed They call it furlough here which everyone was being paid for They could to be at home, exactly. Yeah, so, yeah, so I was working And then they just want to come back and work for money Shocking.

Speaker 2:

I was just like you know, fine, fine.

Speaker 1:

And it wasn't out of spite or anything like that. It was just, you know, you were seeing this kind of March, april 2020. I always say to people it was really scary, really scary. But then you'd come back home and be in the car and then you'd see everyone out in the garden, you know, having their drink, enjoying their furlough money, and it was just that reality distortion. Rather than, rather than me feeling kind of angry that I was having to work and everyone was staying at home, it was more something seems wrong, just like All the things that are happening, or a symptom of a kind of bigger problem, like this debt crisis that the bit corners had been talking about over the last couple years. And so I just started understanding Bitcoin as being this kind of fixed, the fixed supply of money, this kind of global network of a currency that couldn't be debased, that couldn't just be printed at. Well, and it was just the fact that people, this furlough situation just kind of Turned me into what was going on.

Speaker 2:

It joined the dots.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you were you were calling on to that, that piece of the puzzle, long before I was, but I guess you know, coming from the medical profession, you were a few steps ahead because you were seeing it literally play out. When you mentioned before about the preparation and the consolidation of the emergency unit and, like I can't, it would have been a next level of weird Being in your industry. And I think one thing that I just keep coming back to, that I'm so passionate about with, is communication and people using their voices, and It's become so apparent in the in the last couple of years how terrified people are to just have an opinion, because, understandably so, because you have an opinion and that it's polarizing and everyone's here or here, and so you know.

Speaker 2:

You have a lot of intelligent, smart people who are probably perfectly reasonable, but they're just not saying anything, not speaking it, not speaking up, and, unfortunately, all the stupid voices are the ones that are making all the noise Or not stupid, necessarily but the very extreme voices are the ones that are speaking up and you just don't have any middle ground. And even the bitcoiners, even now with, we're labeled as crazy and extreme and it's like well, people don't understand the, the extremity, or the, the extremeness I'm finding the wrong word but of the situation when it comes to money, because of going full circle, they're anxious, they're depressed, they're just trying to deal with their own life, they don't have time to look up and go why, and one and to me, one of the source problems of why they are feeling like that is this situation with money and ever increasing cost of living, and It's definitely what helped me orange pill him, because he was a perfect example of that, you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah separation, financial separation, a child to support, you know, and then and a lot of people are in that situation they might be in a second relationship. Blended families, that's. That's an extra expense, but it's. It's that society, that and it just ripples into everything. You know, family units are breaking down because of this pressure, so did those dots specifically join for you around bitcoin as well?

Speaker 1:

Oh, hello, sorry, we cut off and we're back.

Speaker 2:

That's OK, i can cut that gap out. and did you what? did you hear me say last?

Speaker 1:

You were talking about like families, if one's got families to support, and you know everyone's in this kind of rat race yeah yeah, i mean in our situation.

Speaker 2:

You know, christian have been through a separation, so there was a financial obligation there. That's quite common nowadays. I'm not saying it's right, but even even when, when a family is together, it's just it's this pressure that is breaking up family units, divorces through the roof, and it just To me, this underlying issue of broken money. The lights just started to go on for me with bitcoin. I'm like this is a fix, but it only becomes this Orange pill moment we call it when you have spotted or seen or explore, personally experienced the problem of it. Right?

Speaker 1:

And a lot of people either in enough pain yet, or they're just so busy.

Speaker 2:

they're not looking up and going Why? no one asks why they're too busy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they're just trying to keep up with the pace of what's going on and, yeah, i completely agree that for me it was that wake up moment of oh, it's the money supply, it's the money supply and it's creating that, that kind of I call it a reality distortion. so these things are happening that don't really make sense, and This is the answer. this is the answer. and it's very difficult once, because there was the bit corners that came before us that they were saying the same thing over and over again It's the money supply, stupid, it's the money stuff, you know, and you know I'm there with my kind of, you know, toaster tokens and they're like no, no, i think it's you know. so you kind of Toaster tokens that's.

Speaker 1:

That's a tweet right there, baz and his toaster tokens, exactly exactly, but it's, it's also Go on, go on. It's also scary to kind of make that move from the consensus to the non consensus. I thought, because certainly not in summer 2020. When I was saying to people, i disagree with this, you know I'm out and you know people didn't understand and so I was like, well, maybe that makes sense, because everyone's an agreement, the public agreement, the media, the government, all the scientists, everybody saying the same thing, and actually to kind of jump and say no, i disagree is I'm not having anything to do with. It is a scary place to go, very scary place, yeah, and that's. You know. People were losing friends, families were tearing each other apart and it just.

Speaker 2:

I wrote an article about the mandates over here and you know, whatever your opinion was it, the answer was not to be tearing each other apart to the degree it was and it's. It just feels like everyone's forgotten that a bit too easily. but the underlying issues that people are trying to get, but the underlying issues that broke us in the first place are still there.

Speaker 2:

You know, cost of living. People are starting to see it now. Cost of living Has gone up, interest rates have gone up. When people say they never would and it's like, well, this can't carry on forever. But again the education's missing And I think, absolutely coiners. We just need to do a better job of remembering just how many steps we went through or how much we had to learn and for how long. I mean, i was immersed in it for two years, not really doing much else. That's probably five years or 10 years for the average person who doesn't have time to immerse themselves in it. So how?

Speaker 2:

do you now when someone comes to you or remembers that you've talked about Bitcoin, because you probably get. you get passionate, and then you kind of give up for a while and then I keep sharing stuff on Instagram, but I've stopped saying it in real life. What do you say to people now that has you know? I know I said you're crazy, but what tell me about this Bitcoin thing? what do you say to them now?

Speaker 1:

It's difficult one. I have a certain way of speaking about these kind of non consensus issues now, so I'm not online. Online is a different thing, because you can go out there and be like you know and you know people. But Face to face. I'll say yes. I'll say to people to things I'll say look, i would like this topic has come up. You're talking about Bitcoin. My opinion on this is non consensus. You know it's not all the consensus, so I need your permission.

Speaker 1:

I need your permission to talk about this, so it kind of provides a lovely, nice little framework and then I'll say to people I'm not trying to Change your opinion, this is just how I'm perceiving the world, this is just my opinion, this is my perception. And you know, take it or leave it. And it seems quite simple, but it really kind of frames a conversation really nicely. So Because you'll know, you'll know, in Bitcoin, so you know, the price is going to the moon, everything's great, we're all rich, we've all got Lamborghinis booked and all that sort of thing. You know And you know.

Speaker 1:

And then people have these conversations about Bitcoin And so I used to say, oh, yes, fantastic, it's fantastic. And then, like you know, two weeks later they've invested and then it's kind of gone down 90%. So if I frame the conversation in a way that just says, look, this is, this is a non-consensus issue And this is just my perception of what's going on, then it gives it, gives people a bit of space to be like OK, i'm in charge, i'm in charge of what I'm, of this, this issue.

Speaker 2:

It's just you see, that's I love it, because it's you know, that's I'm just trying to always get better at That's why I'm doing a podcast. I just want to get better at having conversations. I'd rather do a podcast than build a YouTube channel or build a following on Twitter, or we just need to be doing this more. you know, like I know you and I have plenty of common to talk about.

Speaker 2:

But just, i think this is why podcasts are growing, because people, i just want to see a world where people talk to each other more. You know there's every excuse to pick up your phone and text or bash each other on social media or email and just avoid having conversations. And I think you've got a background in dealing with people one on one, insensitive stuff that you're, you're equipped with the skills to therefore talk about something as non-consensus or as controversial or whatever we want to call it, as Bitcoin.

Speaker 2:

What were your thoughts? You said something in your email that really caught my attention as well. The authenticity piece, which is something else I'm super passionate about, is a huge part of my brand and what I want to talk to people about and help people with. You know how do you feel that this is hard to join the dots for people when we're trying to keep it sort of beginner friendly.

Speaker 2:

But, where do you stand on So say, you've got someone sitting in front of you as a doctor, as a counselor, i guess, or however you work now And they ask you about Bitcoin and they've been orange peeled and they want to, you know, share all that enthusiasm with you. And how are they now feeling as a result of oh, i get it, because I'm not articulating this very well, but like I feel like there's little, movies have been made by a lot of the passionate Bitcoiners about a world that exists on hard money, enables people to actually pursue the things that they want to do rather than being trapped in a job, always fighting inflation or fighting cost of living. And, you know, have you orange-pilled anyone to that degree who's maybe been a patient or that's come back and gone? oh my God, i'm actually just happier about life because there's hope.

Speaker 1:

Not yet. I don't think of orange-pilled someone to that extent where I have kind of zeroed.

Speaker 2:

I haven't even. I just talked to them online, but I look forward to doing it.

Speaker 1:

I think, as the way you live, though, as well. You talk about being authentic and you know, three years in, you know 2023 now because I'm back in medicine. I still practice. At the time, I was like I'm leaving, and I'm back now because, because I've been able to communicate how I feel with patients, colleagues, that everyone's yeah you know we're getting to a stage where people are like oh, maybe, maybe Baz had a point, you know, which brings its own emotions. You know it's like.

Speaker 2:

You know they'll be saying that about Bitcoin in a few years too.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, exactly. We're non-consensus at the moment, but you know we're in both states that we're watching it slowly move. And in Bitcoin, they talk about the low time preference. you know the Bitcoin standard and say Fadim and Moose talks about just, you don't just react to what's happening in the here and now. You have to have a lower time preference where you have to be prepared for things to play out at certain time points. And that's something that I took because you know, i was so angry that I was being kind of blocked out of medicine for a while And actually just saying, well, i'm going to keep her kind of lower time preference here. I think I'm going to be proven correct in time. So here we are in 2023. There's a lot more doctors. there's a lot more medics approaching me saying OK, tell me a bit more about your opinion on COVID, your opinion on lockdown.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, yeah, and I think with Bitcoin as well, people are talking about it more, so they're not coming to me. Just when the price is like hit, you know it's not gone up by 2K in a day, or something like that It tends to be people are kind of going now Oh, something's not quite right, there's a problem with the money supply. They're they watch something on the news and they're connecting it so you can have a more interesting conversation now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's as you were talking then I was just glancing at my notes that we talked about earlier with your framework, right, and we said how your one to six steps are like a framework for addressing anxiety. It's a framework that I saw as you could apply it to business. You could apply it to your health. It's the same with this. It's there's just so many parallels with the philosophy that's been built into Bitcoin and the value system that's built, been built in. It's just, you know, it's a lifestyle almost, and I was just publishing.

Speaker 2:

Earlier I did an interview with Alex Fetski And he made a comment about how you know if you've got part of your I don't know if it was him that said it, he kind of touched on it. He said, if you, if you have already got some of your savings or your wealth in Bitcoin, it just gives you this kind of peace of mind that your longer term time frame or time preference, your low time preference, it just gives you a sense of peace because it's like, oh, i can relax about the long term, which means in the short term, i'm more willing to take a bit of risk, like I've pretty much canned everything I was doing from a business perspective to focus on talking more about Bitcoin and helping educate people starting this podcast And it's not necessarily making me money, but I'm like that's okay.

Speaker 2:

That's okay The long term is fine, i can take my time, i can build up slowly And it people think I'm crazy. You know selling real estate to put it in Bitcoin instead, and it's like it's it becomes a lifestyle because you have to live your life Like it's great that we're all contributing to this thing and moving the mission forward. But I was talking to a lot of Bitcoiners at the conference in Australia where, again, men especially of the demographic that we're talking about that you work with, and something that dawned on me was I've got two pockets of people who I generally work with or talk to. You've got a lot of people that are ready to go and start their own side hustle whether it's affiliate marketing or cryptocurrency or whatever they want to get into to generate a second income or maybe just creatively. They want to have something for themselves Who know nothing about Bitcoin. And then you've got a swathe of Bitcoiners who are super passionate, who will do anything to talk about Bitcoin and push the mission forward whilst working in a job they still can't stand, and several conversations I had were who would be men especially it was male dominant who would be the kind of people sitting in front of you, and what I got quite concerned about, and I've started pointing out to them, was like this is fantastic that you think you're going to get rich in Bitcoin and you've got all this Bitcoin.

Speaker 2:

That's going to change your life, but what if it takes 10 years? your kids will have grown up and moved out. Then what Like it that time that their time preference on Bitcoin is spot on? But I'm like what about your life? And this is the. This is where I'm trying to just keep people. Get my message out there around have Bitcoin for God's sake, but let that take the pressure off to let you also enjoy. You've got to make money, but that means you've got the tolerance or risk willingness to take risks in the now to actually also enjoy the journey. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely It. Just it gives you that space, and it's a difficult thing to communicate to people that the idea that you now have a bit headspace. You have invested time and energy into this alternative scheme, which is scary, it's a little bit non consensus, but it's a. It's a potential exit strategy for whatever, whatever is going on in the world at the moment. So, yeah, absolutely gives you that space. But, like you say, it's that stepwise progression as well, and then you have to go undergo these hurdles at the early stages as well. There's always the temptation with Bitcoin to get rich quick. Like you say, if you have a 10 year time preference or 20 year time preference, or if you're thinking about family or the generations, that then it kind of works.

Speaker 1:

But yeah if you're kind of larking in with you know, i think in like alright, i just, you know, i think it's going to go up now, or I mean, there's been so many problems with alternative investment schemes or the staking, the Bitcoin staking, lending schemes, that they sometimes go under as well. So that's been a that's. There's an education behind it. But if you, if you go through these steps and then it's very advantageous.

Speaker 2:

And you can be. You can be. I tweeted the other day and it was. It got quite a lot of interaction. It's like you don't have to fully understand Bitcoin to start buying it.

Speaker 2:

You know, i promote amber because they're one of the best apps I found to just put five $10 a week in, because once you've got a little bit of skin in the game, you just naturally pay more attention, and I guess one thing I would start wrapping up with with you is, like it's you know, the staking and the lending is basically what Baz is referring to is just, if you're going to buy Bitcoin, buy Bitcoin and keep hold of it self custody. it is like those are the rules. if even if you don't know what that means at the moment, find out what that means before you start venturing anywhere near other cryptocurrencies, because you know you might have people coming in who are dealing with anxiety because of life. The last thing we want is them to get all excited about Bitcoin and then be back on your couch talking about their anxiety and depression because they've lost all their money.

Speaker 1:

It's such a balance to get people educated, so just to that and I should probably Yeah, i should probably make that disclosure as well. The book doesn't end with and the solution to anxiety is to buy. But if you can, find it in yourself.

Speaker 1:

You know, if you have the space, if you have the authenticity, if you're building up your inner compass and listening to yourself, then things will happen. Um, i almost take the reverse opinion and when I'm talking about bitcoin with people to say why not not buy bitcoin? and say to yourself you know what, for the next four weeks, for the next six weeks, i'm not, i'm not going to buy bitcoin, but I'm going to pay attention to the space and kind of just wear it like a jacket, see how it feels. You know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, it's true. And what you just said about your inner compass and finding all that as everything I'm all about. I'm like everyone. Just before we start having all these polarized conversations about consensus issues and non-consensus issues, it's like just stop and give yourself the time out to talk to yourself, because that's what you know, that's, that's your method, that's your process. Um, to me, it's that that bitcoin does fix a lot of things, but it doesn't fix people's ability to listen to their inner voices and deal with their health first.

Speaker 2:

Because without that there's nothing. Um, so, with all this wisdom of yours, what would I like to always ask people at the end of a conversation? Um, what advice would you give your younger self and what would you tell him about money And not just buy bitcoin, oh man.

Speaker 1:

Yes, just buy bitcoin, dude. Yeah, go back to 2010 and buy some. Yeah, do the whole back to the future thing, or like you?

Speaker 2:

know yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, i think maybe read Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad Prood ad That was. That's a book that I wish that I'd read sooner, because going into medicine at 17 and just the great thing about medicine is you're guaranteed your wage, the community likes you and supports you and you know everything is hunky dory until it isn't, and that's quite a big shock for medics. That's why our rates of self harm, depression, suicide are so high is that we're in the rat race and we're rewarded for it, but when something goes wrong, none of us have the skills to think for ourselves and to think outside the box and find ways to be authentic and to get paid in different ways. So I think I would say I would maybe communicate something like that and to read Rich Dad Prood ad, because I think he has. Robert Kiyosaki has a very interesting way of looking at money and how to escape the rat race.

Speaker 2:

I think, yeah, spot on, like that was. That was the first book on money that changed my life for sure. It's just the rich don't work for money, they make money, work for them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think, and that's the thing when you really do get into bitcoin, you start to understand the energy piece, and I talked about that on my last interview I recorded, which isn't out yet, but it just it is a massive rabbit hole And it's bringing out. you know, like you said, thinking for yourself like why, just as a side note, why did you go into medicine? Was it something you were passionate about Or was it? this is the only way I'm going to earn a good wage.

Speaker 1:

Second second.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, this was the only way it was west of Scotland, you know rough school.

Speaker 1:

I was like, how do I get out of this? And yeah, yeah, it was very simple.

Speaker 2:

If it doesn't work for doctors and lawyers, it doesn't work for many people. I think I saw an article about dentists being something like the fourth highest in Australia career. that suicide is a date, a statistic, And like Jesus, well, if doctors and lawyers and dentists and you know these supposedly high paid medical professions are struggling, then we really do have a problem. So thank, you for sharing. Really appreciate it. Love the way you tied all your sort of Bitcoin experiences in. Where can people find you? You said you're not really online.

Speaker 1:

It was really nice to speak with you And, yeah, really nice to speak with you. I've really it's been a long time coming. So the book is this is available on Amazon, all versions of Amazon internationally, so you can get it in ebook version, kindle or paperback. But I say to people get the ebook, because it's all the exercises and all the chapters are linked so you can kind of go back and forth quite easily on it. And you know Amazon or their print costs are so high now that actually an ebook is more profitable for me, and so you can see me on Instagram as well at anxiety4men And my family. We have a website called hidden gatewayorg, so that just this is our kind of document of our adventures through life and Bitcoin.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, i'll make sure that's all linked in descriptions and show notes and all the other places that I have to upload stuff. Thank you so much. I will make sure that's all linked And, yeah, we'll talk again soon. Well done, awesome, thank you.

Speaker 1:

Awesome Right. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

Hello, my friend, as someone who's not the best at finishing the things they start, thank you so much for making it to the end of this podcast. I hope you found it helpful. Maybe it piqued your curiosity on something new or even just made you smile for a few seconds. If any of those things apply here, then all my regular tech challenges and tantrums are well worth it to get this to you. If you heard anything at all that you think could help just even one other human being, there's a couple of things you can do that I would really and truly appreciate. Firstly, you can follow or subscribe wherever you're listening.

Speaker 2:

On most podcast platforms, this is usually just a case of hitting a follow button or a plus sign on the main show page. This means you'll never miss an episode, which is hopefully a win-win for us both. Secondly, if you're feeling really generous, you can leave me a five-star rating or review wherever you're listening. And lastly, feel free to share an episode with a friend on social media. With any thoughts, feedback, suggestions or even criticism, it's okay, i can take it. Just tag me using the handle at AmyTaylorSays to make sure I see it and can thank you personally. Any or all of these things genuinely mean more human beings see and hear these conversations. So again, thank you for being here and helping me with my mission with BU Get Paid to help as many people as possible know themselves, know money and be happy. See you next time.

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Amy Taylor

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