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In many conversations, we discuss the role Bitcoin has to play in this brave new world - one that is being built on a system of meritocracy. A system designed to reward individual creativity and contribution.
***DISCLAIMER*** Any opinions expressed on this podcast are my own and the personal views of my respective guests. This content is for conversational, educational and entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as financial or investment advice.
Be You. Get Paid.
#014 My Father Murdered My Mother, w/ Ivan Makedonski
“There isn't a single law that was made that was going to save my mother. But if all her assets were in Bitcoin, he would have had to think about killing her and all the Bitcoin dies with her…”
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In speaking to Bitcoiners on a more frequent basis - it’s become increasingly apparent, that the majority have incredibly personal reasons for being so passionate about it.
It seems the longer a person is proverbially “down the Bitcoin rabbit hole”, the more determined they are to contribute to the mission of “fix the money, fix the world”.
For Ivan Makedonski this is deeply personal.
For many of us, the death of a parent is life-changing and for Ivan, it was unbelievably traumatic. This impressive young man has taken the many lessons from it and transformed his life in to one of service, passion and purpose in the Bitcoin industry.
Grief, forgiveness, family leadership, entrepreneurship, creativity and expert-level networking to create opportunities, were among the many things we discussed. It was a privilege to hear Ivan’s story.
Follow Ivan on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/Nackoo2000
Check out Breez App: https://breez.technology/
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I just wanted to take a moment to pre-frame this conversation because my father murdered my mother. May seem like a bit of a confronting or jarring title for a podcast episode, but I just wanted to point out that in speaking to bit coiners on a more frequent basis, it's become increasingly apparent that the majority have incredibly personal reasons for being so passionate about it. It seems the longer a person is proverbially down the bitcoin rabbit hole, the more determined they are to contribute to the mission of fix the money, fix the world. For Ivan Makodonsky, this is deeply personal. For many of us, the death of a parent is life-changing, and for Ivan it was unbelievably traumatic. This impressive young man has taken the many lessons from it and transformed his life into one of service, passion and purpose in the bitcoin industry. Grief, forgiveness, family leadership, entrepreneurship, creativity and expert-level networking to create opportunities were among the many things we discussed. It was a privilege to hear Ivan's story and I hope you enjoy listening.
Speaker 2:There isn't a single law that, if you was made, that was going to save my mother. But if all her assets were in bitcoin, he was actually going to think about oh, do I want to kill her? And all that bitcoin dies with her. So when, back in 2022, when I connected that and I found out, oh, that was the potential savior for that situation, and the only game in town is are you able to protect your assets, your energy, your everything? Yeah, if you have a gun, you can shoot your attacker, but it's again this bloodshed and I don't think people want to go there. I lived through that. My father decided oh, I don't have my fair share, I'm going to kill for it he had been sent to.
Speaker 2:I don't think yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, hello human.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for tuning into the BU Get Paid podcast.
Speaker 1:I am your host, amy Taylor, and I have one goal by being in your ears to explore as many conversations and perspectives as possible on stuff we did not learn in school, you know, stuff that would have actually helped a lot more of us thrive, rather than just survive, as grownups in an often challenging and ever changing world. As the title might suggest, this includes anything involved with knowing ourselves, understanding money and generally anything that might offer some insight into how we can all be happier humans. With that in mind, wherever you're listening, you'll find links to some of the best resources I have personally found to help with all of those things. Sometimes I'll talk about these in a bit more detail, and I want you to know I will only ever recommend products, services and companies that I am a customer or user of myself. Now, real grownups here, and as such, you'll possibly hear the occasional use of grownup language. More importantly, anything discussed here is personal opinion and intended for conversational and educational purposes only, and should not be taken as financial or investment advice.
Speaker 2:Okay, so welcome I hope it's some help.
Speaker 1:Machodonsky, have I got that right?
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:You're welcome. Thanks for being here. So we were just talking briefly. I don't know a huge amount about you other than what I've heard on other podcasts. Huge shout out to Carrie on Bitcoin people because she did a superb job of getting a lot of gold and juice and very personal information from you, which is kind of what I would like to do too.
Speaker 1:But I was just saying to you before I think everybody that comes into Bitcoin has a somewhat similar framework or a few steps that they go through before their conviction and their commitment really like there's a change in gear, like it's kind of a little bit of skepticism, a little bit of fear it's your own money, you know it's risky, all those things and then I feel like there just comes this point for everyone where it's just this is so important. This has just gone up a gear, and listening to your story I know that's been the case for me and then listening to your story just put that on steroids. Like it stopped me in my tracks when I was walking this morning hearing you tell your story. So we'll keep that as a bit of a cliff hanger, because otherwise it can all be a bit too much too soon and I'm a shocker for jumping around and jumping back into different topics, so let's keep it on track. Tell me where you're joining me from. And yeah, where you're from, you've obviously got a very strong accent, so you are in.
Speaker 2:I am from Sofia, bulgaria. It's in the Balkans. So, yeah, I live here with Bitcoin and with my lady. Now we travel a bit.
Speaker 1:Did you just say you live with Bitcoin and your lady?
Speaker 2:No, I'm saying because of Bitcoin. Maybe, I said it wrong, but yeah, because of Bitcoin. Yeah, sorry, I thought you were saying who you live with.
Speaker 1:and Bitcoin first, bitcoin before the late.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's also true that we travel with our Bitcoin because it's in our minds, so it's technically right. Apologies, carry on. Yeah, but yeah, because of my life here, what you pre-fragged in the conversation I was. Firstly, I would say the groundwork for me was done, not because I wanted to study Bitcoin or something like that, but because of my personal experience. When I started learning about Bitcoin, I connected it to my story in a very deep personal level and I was actually avoiding to study about Bitcoin for more than a year and a half.
Speaker 2:And at some point, you just say, okay, what the hell is this thing? Let's get a little bit more. And I'm very glad that I started this route and not just all by some and you don't know why the number is going up, because a lot of crypto is also going up, because of Bitcoin and because of lack of understanding and, yeah, because of my lady. Again, she got in Ethereum first and she was bugging me for a year. Okay, let's learn about this, we'll make money and let's learn about it. And I said go away, I don't want to be involved in this. And at some point I said, okay, I'm going to prove that this is wrong and I started to study and I proved that every crypto is just coming, but this goddamn Bitcoin thing. I couldn't find the fall and I studied more and more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You're like me. You have to be right. You've got to prove something with someone wrong. Yeah, I know I get that feeling, so just stop a sec. He said your girlfriend is your wife, your lady. That's much nicer. Did you say she owned Ethereum?
Speaker 2:Yeah, she bought one Ethereum about 2015 for 50 pounds very, very cheap. Just, she got excited before we even met. But again, from this perspective of lack of understanding, just let's try it. This is the new Bitcoin thing. That's how she was sold to it. But when I studied this obviously now she understands it in a deeper level we talk about it, so we plan our lives together and things like that, so we moved everything to Bitcoin.
Speaker 2:But it was definitely because of her chasing me for more than a year talking about this and at some point, a very close friend returned the money that he owed me and it came out of nowhere. And that was the final straw for me, like, how were you able to pay me back? Because I thought that I would never see that money. And he said, oh, I'm in crypto, everything is great and things like that. And I said, okay, if this person is able to make money, I'm going to study and prove that they are home.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, I went into 2021, december, my Christmas vacation. It was about 10, 11 days. For those days, every single day, for 16 hours, I was studying, I was binging on content and finding out what is true and what is not, and in the first three days, I found out, okay, bitcoin is different than crypto, and again going falling down deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole. I couldn't find the fall. And when I found out, okay, this is the ultimate protection for your property and what you accumulated in your life, and you can't be attacked externally because it's the central, because it's proof of work, and you can be attacked from within the system because it's decentralized. I found out, okay. Now, this is the thing that I needed back in 2014 because of my story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we've done that a bit back to front, but I think it's actually that's actually helpful. You know, you have got an extremely powerful personal story, so let's, let's go back then. So so it's basically, I've met a few men like this, so it's down to your lady that your full Bitcoin my partner will say the same thing, he's nearly there he's.
Speaker 1:He's still got a little bit of other crypto, but I let. I've learned not to try and teach him. It doesn't work in relationships, but he's getting there and he's got his reasons for feeling the same way about the government and the state. So, but your story is super powerful, so let's go back. So you're, you're raised in Bulgaria, Is that right? In Sofia? Yeah, I was raised in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I was raised in a village where my grandma lives, but so once I started school, I came into the capital because of my mother and now, more than 20 years, I'm in the city in different areas, but I was raised with valuing mathematics, especially on my mother's side. My father not my father, but my grandfather taught mathematics in high school and in university. My grandma was teaching math again, but, of course, lower grades, and my mother became a civil engineer and I was raised okay. Mathematics is the fundamental language, the universal language for everything, for the universe, and two plus two is always four. And if you communicate, even with words, if I tell love what is love, people will give different definitions, but in mathematics there is no. Yeah, people will give the same definition. Two is this symbol, so, and we know exactly what it is, and because of that I would say I was again primed to go deeper and understand on that fundamental thing for Bitcoin.
Speaker 2:And where the other thing happened is in 2008, the financial crisis. It took effect on the whole world and with our family, because my mother managed to create a successful business. We weren't affected as much back then and she just wanted to budget here and there because the landscape changed. But the person next to her wasn't working my father and because he didn't work, didn't understand the value of the things where they're coming from, the value of actually working and he was just oh, I want this, I want this, just like a spoiled teenager that is just giving this and this. And because she was working and still we were fairly okay, we weren't lacking anything, but she wasn't overspending for things that he particularly wanted.
Speaker 2:And this intensified over the years, for more than five years, I would say and in 2013, she was. I had enough, I wanted the worst. And then it really got intensified on his side and a lot of other personal problems, not just the money, but again it's heated arguments all the time and when he understood okay, this is really actually going to happen, I don't have any income. Yes, she's going to give me some stuff that accumulated some assets, but I don't know how to make money. I'm just going to spend it. And what then? And because she was working, she thought that she is not giving him his fair share. And all this combined, well, I was.
Speaker 2:No, I'm saying that he wasn't working, so he didn't understand. Okay, I want 60% of all the assets. The other thing is that he couldn't actually calculate exactly how much everything is worth, and she knew and she's the main person like 99% of every asset that we owned was because of my mother, not because of him, and she said, okay, those are my stuff and I want to leave them. However, I want to leave them, and she was giving him a lot, in my opinion, but he again, it was never enough on his side and because of this, in his psychological mind, he decided, okay, I'm going to kidnap her and manage to kill her with knife, and it was brutal.
Speaker 2:I'm the only one that saw her body, her state, but this takes a very big emotional toll when you go through that. And because I was already an independent person, I wasn't living with them, but from the outside, I kind of knew what was happening and I was. This is the failure in my life, that one of the goals that I had in my life is to help them separate peacefully, and so this will forever be my biggest failure. But once this thing happens, I have a smaller sister that is 11 years younger than me and I said, okay, I now have to be 1000% there for her and to try to navigate and see how to react to the situation, so to adapt. Because after everything the money, the assets, whatever the most important thing for my mother's legacy is her kids. That's in my opinion.
Speaker 2:So, whatever happens with everything else, if we don't manage to handle this situation, nothing else matters. And if we develop the skills and manage to take care of that situation and even strive forward, then, even if the things that we lost, it wouldn't matter again. It would matter because we'll recreate it and that's actually exactly what's right now is happening, with the help of become later on. But yeah, I would say I would leave it here for taking questions, but that's basically the biggest emotional thing that anchored me to really understand what it means to protect the all the things that you're fighting for Once you're alive. And I saw in the Fiat system that once the parent is gone, the kids are so much unprotected and it's just like the weakest lamb in a herd and the lions are circling. So yeah, Wow.
Speaker 1:So again, thank you. I did know some of that, obviously, but you tell your story very articulately, but also with incredible strength. So fair play, because I'm sure it's not an easy one to to reflect on at all. Wow, where to start unpacking that? So how old were you at the time, first of all, when she died?
Speaker 2:It was 27. My sister was 16. So, yeah, she wasn't. In our country you become an adult at 18. So I had two years that I had to take custody of her and there were problems even about that, and my father sued me that he wanted to send her somewhere else because I'm going to brainwash her mind about him.
Speaker 1:And was your mother's partner. Was he her father? I know he's not your biological father, so is she your biologically half sister.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, we have the same mother.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, no, I have a father as well. So so you're 26, 27, she's 16. He presumably was put in jail, yeah yeah, that was yeah.
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, the whole situation is that we were searching them for 24 hours but after 24 hours the police found him. And, yeah, I kind of knew when I woke up that morning that, okay, she's dead. Like nobody gave me. But I knew because I kind of knew his mind. I mean, I lived with him for more than 15 years and when they said, okay, like the police told me this has happened, then it was. I distinctly remember for myself that, okay, this is an incredibly emotional thing that. But I'm not allowed to feel that emotion because I'm the person that has to act right now. And yeah, maybe I repressed a lot of things that I should have went through as grief. I still went through a grief stage. Obviously, I'm not a complete robot.
Speaker 1:I want to say that it catches up with you eventually, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I knew that, whatever I feel, it really doesn't matter. It's all about actions, then, and especially because of the responsibility for my sister and everything that I have to do. But yeah, like when you go through that and I will just facing okay, this is the problem that I have to deal with People stole some stuff. The laws are not protecting us. They are not decent lawyers. They are out for themselves, they want their whatever money. It's not keeping our interest. Relatives want to give you advice, but it's not the advice for you and they come from a different perspective and they see you again as this small child that doesn't understand that. They want to force you, like from everywhere, like it was. The first three years were extremely hard.
Speaker 1:The first three years. I can imagine at this point how old are you now? How long ago was this? You said 2014, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, nine years ago. So now I'm 36. I managed to become 37 a few months back.
Speaker 1:Oh, well done, you managed to.
Speaker 2:You made it this far.
Speaker 1:I mean, considering what you've been through, well done, I think. Every day that you survive past experiencing something like that is quite incredible. So just to backtrack a little bit, you said you know you had to essentially drop everything and were responsible for your sister. So what were you doing for a living at that point, when?
Speaker 2:you asked your mom yeah, I was. I set up a partnership with developer. We were developing a web strategy game and we managed to do that and we were in talks about distributors. We were just about to sign the contracts and that business to potentially take off. But it happened exactly then and on the side I was actually working for another company before I set out in my personal venture.
Speaker 2:But because of this, I went into the partnership and took all the employees and I said I'm so sorry, I have to shut everything down. On my side I'll help you find jobs, decent positions, whatever it takes. And I went into full time working because I was just part time on the other side and I said, okay, I have to work full time on that so I have the steady income. Yeah, and I was renting a few of the properties until there were some of them were stolen, some of them I had to sell because I had expenses about the funeral, about lawyers, about all the other stuff.
Speaker 2:Because in that whole process, my father decided, okay, I want to still have a lot of stuff because, yeah, I'm in jail, but I want to have my next take, whatever, like he's trying to face the problems that he's facing and he managed to attract a few people to be his proxy and to do his bidding outside and they made a general assembly in the company that were co-owned by them and they said, okay, we're making a general assembly, we're forcing out me and my sister, the part that we had to inherit from our mother, and when they forced us out, they sold to a partner that were in that company immediately, so to another person. And yeah, and they probably they brought some people so he gets a lower sentence. He brought some people in jail so he gets treated better there. So a lot of stuff are happening and again, it's not 100% confirmed, but I'm almost certain that's how it happened.
Speaker 2:And when I went through this thing, you go into this other side of the law and what Jeff Booth says, like money are more powerful than the laws. I was again primed for that. Like, again, I'm going through all of this without having any idea about Bitcoin. I'm just facing the problems.
Speaker 1:There's a reason. Yeah, there's a reason, and I think just I don't want to interrupt you at all because everything you're saying there's so much I want to ask you, but it's all just kind of gripping. You know, I don't know how spiritual you are. I'm assuming you you're probably a little bit spiritual if you like Jeff Booth. But you know, if your mom was listening to this conversation and I'm sure you've told your story many times before I'm sure she's got a smile on her face like as hard as it was. Look where it's led you and you, I'm sure you wouldn't have had the conviction or the passion or the I call it the icky guy, if you've ever read about icky guy like your reason for being you're so passionate about Bitcoin, and now we know why. So let's just break that down a bit. In short, your, your stepfather or your father, is in prison and he's somehow managing to have it play out that he gets all of your mom's assets and you and your sister got nothing, or what happened. Did you get anything?
Speaker 2:I would say Well, she had a will and the phrase that I always say that in the field system, your will is not your will, it's what the state allows it to be. Because I found out, even though she had a will, and she left almost everything to me because she couldn't live into her teenager daughter, she didn't know how to manage and she knew that if she leaves it to me, I will again have this sense of judgment how to split it, if I want to split it between us, and I would say, because she had a will a certain way and it wasn't compliant to the laws actually find out that the laws are completely different.
Speaker 2:It's not actually your actual will. It's again this written rules that are completely bullshit, that all you accumulated your stuff in. You want to leave them a certain way. No, you can't. And people took advantage, especially in the beginning of that. They challenged that will before he gets a sentence, because, even though he was in jail, before he gets the final conviction, he was just a full citizen, but under arrest and because it's full citizen, he still has a claim on those assets and he was challenging that will.
Speaker 2:And again, money are more powerful than laws, and I'm referring to Jason Lowry's thesis. Like power, projection is the game and Bitcoin is protecting you from all that things that we're thinking. All laws are there to protect me. I would say this there isn't a single law that if you was made, that was going to save my mother, but if all her assets were in Bitcoin, he was actually going to think about, oh, do I want to kill her and all that Bitcoin dies with her.
Speaker 2:So when back in 2022, when I connected that and I found out, oh, like, that was the potential savior for that situation and there isn't a force in the world that will tell me all, like Bitcoin will be shut down or whatever, like the food is out there. I live through everything that Jason Lowry is saying that we will all be attacked at some point, and the only game in town is are you able to protect your assets, your energy, your everything? And Bitcoin is giving you all that non-lethal because, yeah, if you have a gun, you can shoot your attack there, but it's again this bloodshed and I don't think people want to go there. I live through that because, again, my father decided oh, I don't have my fair share, I'm going to kill for it, and I don't think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So again, I do realize that he's not the typical person and a minority are like that, but again, what happens if somebody else decides to? What happens if, right now, in the crisis that it's coming, or the hyperinflation that it's coming, all of us will be forced to play that game to survive? I would say not all of us, but the big, big majority. And again, going back to my story, is my story. That's why I related to the 2008, because my father had this tendency, but it was again pushed to this a little bit extreme and created all those tensions between us to be pushed in that scenario.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and now imagine all the psychopaths out there that are okay because now they can afford stuff. What would happen to all the husbands that are abusing their wives, or all the wives that are abusing their husbands, like whatever it's happening or kids, or trafficking humans, or drug dealing, or all of that? If they can't afford their life, how are they going to respond to the rest of society and how is that society going to respond to them? And this is utter chaos that definitely the fiat will kill people and Bitcoin will actually save them, and this is my mission.
Speaker 2:When I found out this I said I don't care my plans to be an entrepreneur, to be self-sustained. Now I'm here to serve. I don't want people to experience what they experienced, because there are people out there that have much worse stories than mine, but those are the important people to be in Bitcoin, to really realize it and to be protected from all those forces that are against them personally. And yeah, that's why, again, I'm on a mission and I devoted the rest of my life, the rest of my career, to be of service of Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:Wow, I was going to take a deep breath. That was a lot. Honestly, you're incredible. So there's a couple of things there and I'm trying to retain everything you just said, because I was just listening. First of all, where is he now? Is he still in jail? Has he passed on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he is still in jail but his sentence is 18 years and already we are at the half point and I am taking actions to see if I can push some things to extend his sentence. Because why? I said that? Most likely he bribes some people to have a reduced sentence because he is not sued in the proper paragraph of the law we don't know the exact terminology there but he is sued in the place where it is like all the fault, each other, but one of them died. That is the lower sentence. But the highest sentence is if he decided to kill her for financial benefit. That is the highest sentence that you can get for murder Because, let's say, we fight each other. But I sent him somebody Not exactly an accident, it is still hard, but it is treated with a lesser fashioned sentence and he was sued in that paragraph of the law and in my opinion it has to be the highest because it was not only financial gain but especially brutal because my mother was 50 kilos and he was 100. You can't fight that.
Speaker 1:So you are still fighting nine years later. Have you communicated with him at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, in the beginning it was again going back to it. I can't express to the audience how disconnected he is to the world. I saw him in the beginning because I wanted to know when exactly it happened, because I said, for 24 hours we didn't know which is the actual date that he died. I wanted to see if he. I went in the beginning, first to realize what happened and second to tell him everything that you have right now, see where you are, give everything to your kid. And he said no, not only no, but after that he took the apartment and he didn't pay one cent, even for education.
Speaker 2:And once I found out this is what's happening, then I stopped visiting him or whatever. But I had to. I would say I didn't have to deal with him directly. I was trying to navigate the fear law system to take up proper action, and not that I want him to be all the time in jail, but it's again for the protection of me and my sister. What would happen if he gets out? I don't want people to suffer, even him in a way, but I can't take the chance of him going out and for some reason finds out right now that I'm okay and I managed to have whatever and he decides oh, I want my share. Or what happens to his kids, because if he kills her, everything that she owns will be transferred automatically because of the laws.
Speaker 1:So he still got an incentive to hurt people because of the laws in.
Speaker 2:Bulgaria, yeah, and I imagine even in Australia or every country. If you kill your kid and your kid doesn't have kids, where are the assets going?
Speaker 1:As far as we're, aware we have a will system, Like if you have a will, but I mean there's still people can challenge it and you hear all sorts of awful stories, but I mean it just sounds like there's slightly less protection for you. But let's start to move away from that, because I'm so. Thank you so much for sharing it's an incredibly powerful story. Can I just pick up on what you said about you don't need to be an entrepreneur. We'll get to breeze at the end of the conversation or soon, because you're now essentially you're an employee, right, you're working for another company and I think a lot of my audience, or people that potentially I'm connected to online and on my email list and that kind of thing, are people who have the desire to have their own business. And it's not for everybody and I think it takes incredible guts to just admit sometimes, especially when you go through something as life changing as you did that you know maybe I don't have to be an entrepreneur because, at the end of the day, are highest selves, without being too woo, woo or spiritual.
Speaker 1:Is this service concept now that you can do that as a human being with a job, without a job, with your own company? But I don't think many people get to the level of understanding what it means to serve the way you express just then. So what does it mean to you when you say I'm here to serve and you said to serve Bitcoin. But by serving Bitcoin you're serving people? So what does living a life of service to you mean? Because to me, that's the ultimate happiness that most humans are looking for, even if they don't know it yet. And then you go through something perhaps not as extreme as you, but it's made you realize that. So what does that mean to you, to live a life of service?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that I was prepared once I started living on my own. I was really looking for this life of service, but I thought that it would be through entrepreneurship, because I worked always in companies but I always was pushing stuff on my side, experimenting this and that, and I had a lot of parents, but I was getting traction on the successes and I thought it was just that avenue. But I was still again trying to serve with my skills, the things that I love to do, and the bonus would be getting paid for it. But once I found out that my unique story, my unique understanding of this, I said I don't care what frame I mean, whether I'm an entrepreneur, whether I'm an employee, whether I'm just going wandering down the streets, whatever it is, through, whatever form, I'm here for that mission Because, for whatever reason, this higher power decided for me to understand at this deep level. That means that I should be that message for other people and to serve them, and the vehicle right now is this frame Bitcoin. But again, a lot of things happened to me to really be in this position, because if I didn't have that experience, if my mother is right now, well, I probably wouldn't understand even Bitcoin still.
Speaker 2:But because of this that's how I view it and I would definitely agree is the service of your fellow mankind, and it's for me. It really is about what are you uniquely positioned to do? And love it, because, even though I'm an employee right now, because it's this service, I do so many other things that are unrelated to my working. For breeze, I started a meetup in Bulgaria, I am engaged in communities, I orange field, all my relatives, all that. I'm not getting paid for it, but it's again this service of this must happen Because, again, even if they don't realize that the bloodshed is coming, I realize it and it's my responsibility to actually do everything that I can.
Speaker 2:And again, not pushing them, but of service of that, because if I do it, I have to do this and I see myself as the gold or you don't understand and I don't view it as service that I underneath and to service them. That means that I'm going to get in this field might say that I'm going to abuse my power. I'm going after power, I'm going after mortgage, but if you're of service, yeah, and it's a slippery slope there, but if you're at service, I feel an incredible joy. When somebody else gets it. I feel incredible joy when somebody else buys it. I feel incredible joy if somebody reaches out. Those are completely different dynamic and I don't have this entitlement. Or you're here. Let's say somebody says teach me about the hardware, all that, ask me a question about this. I don't have any type of ego in that conversation because I'm serving them. And the ego would be oh, you pay me this amount of money because I said so, or you're not worth my time.
Speaker 2:Again, I have to prioritize my time and things like that. But just because it's this service mentality, it's a completely different outcome for what you're going to accomplish. And especially if you're consistent, because in this fear system that we live in and people want to abuse and trick you, scam you or all those things, people are not used to it. They're not used to seeing other people be of service to them. They're oh, you're giving me something nice. What is your angle?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's how I view it.
Speaker 1:That was a masterclass in so many things, but I think, especially anyone who does want to be an entrepreneur, even if it's as a second income stream, which is usually the kind of person I talk to, it's. You're so right. You know the consistency aspect. They're not expecting something quickly. You know holding out for the time horizons right. We talk about that a lot in Bitcoin. Take the longer term view. So many lessons in that, and I think as well.
Speaker 1:Something I picked up on listening to you then was as much as you learned, or at least something I observe. You may not have thought about this consciously, but I'm sure you have. You seem very self-aware, as much as I'm sure losing your mom and her death and the incentive that your father had for murdering her has taught you a lot. I was listening to when you were describing him and the fact that he didn't work and he didn't really have much purpose. That, to me, is far too common a situation in the world at the moment, especially in the Western countries.
Speaker 1:I know nothing about Bulgarian culture. Forgive me not being there. The only thing I know about them is one of the football teams I've heard of, Sophia, because there's a football team that has Sophia in its name. But in the Western world there are far too many people that are incentivized to not work because the government hands them out money for sitting. It's easier to sit at home and earn not great money, but doing nothing, because if you go out and earn money, those benefits will be cut off. So you've seen the ultimate end game of what happens when there's too many people. When a person, just one person, is in that situation, with no purpose, not being self-sufficient, not having any sense of purpose, the ultimate downfall is literally turning the worst thing to be incentivized again.
Speaker 2:The only trigger for those people is to take that income and then they go do crazy stuff because they don't know how to actually go work. They are thinking, oh, how do I get again something for nothing? And that's their thinking.
Speaker 1:It's true, something for nothing. And it's why because people often say about Bitcoin oh well, it's only used for money laundering, drug dealing, that kind of thing and it's like no, the fiat system supports that better than anything else. Because what do people turn to when they want to numb the pain of their existence? Right? So, alcohol, drugs. So they're two of the most profitable industries to be in. So that's why people turn to drugs, not necessarily taking them, but dealing them. So, yeah, I think it's just worth pointing out the really grim side of a society at the moment, because there is hope, but we're just slowly chipping away at the worst it can become, and we're going to wake up in five, 10 years and possibly sooner, and people are going to be like well, how did this happen? How on earth did we get here?
Speaker 1:I think a lot of Americans are feeling that way now and it's like well, we get here very slowly by not paying attention, and because people and it's a vicious circle because people are struggling to keep up with the cost of living and all the things that they don't have time to look up and see what's happening they're just trying to survive and meanwhile, in the five minutes they might get in the morning they stick on the radio or they stick on the TV or they scroll through Facebook and it's all fear mongering to keep us scared and under control. Let's move on. So you can the company that I say can that's probably not good language with with them You've got very good English, by the way but me saying can, can the? Can the company you close down your company so that you can focus purely on raising your sister or looking after your sister and surviving the God awful aftermath of what you went through? And then, from listening to Carrie talk to you, destiny kind of stepped in, I feel, because once you discovered Bitcoin or you, you move on to a job or whatever it was you did in between. Tell me about the destiny that led you to ultimately getting this job right.
Speaker 1:So you are taking an interest in Bitcoin and all these names that you'd heard of. Was it? Jeff Booth reached out to you first. Price of tomorrow, jeff.
Speaker 2:Booth no, it wasn't. Yeah, definitely Because I said I gained fairly good knowledge about Bitcoin and because now I made that commitment that I will serve, but I didn't take that final leap, I will quit my fear job and search for an avenue.
Speaker 1:But once I decided sorry to interrupt. The fear job was?
Speaker 2:I was, yeah, I was in sales. I was a sales manager in a company. Yeah and yeah, but that finally I decided to take and say I don't know when it's going to happen, how it's going to happen, but there isn't a logical reason for me to stay and not make that leap, only emotional reasons. Yeah and yeah. When. When I decided okay, I quit my job and I had, but he didn't he didn't have any lined up interviews or anything and I started in Bitcoin or jobs checking what I'm fairly well fit for certain positions.
Speaker 2:I reached out in LinkedIn, companies trying to connect to their HR. People reached out to the names that I was following and some of them said, oh, we are not currently hiring. They gave me. There. I was navigating the space and on the other side, I was making animations. Yes, and on Twitter I was making animations to connect to more and more people. So not only for me to reach out, but I was putting a little bit of value so other people would reach out to me. But with that approach I would say you will attract content creators more than actually other people.
Speaker 1:Because animation is very hard. Just stop there, just to stop there. There's a good lesson in that as well, and I know you did mention that on your podcast that I heard you on the way. You have got such a natural service mentality whether you know it, I'm sure you know that now but the number of people who want to quit their jobs not many people want to learn a new skill, but I'm trying to always get that message across to people, but the number of people that want to quit their job and this whole service thing doesn't click.
Speaker 1:What you did with those animations was genius, but it's also very simple. You weren't asking anyone for anything. I think you said you were taking sections of podcasts and animating them like a compelling part of the podcast, and you see them all the time now on Instagram, especially because video content is king. We know that, but all very short form. No one's got any attention span left anymore and as someone who's a content creator now with this podcast, I do everything myself. I would love to put 25 posts out for every episode. I make in short form video with animations, but I don't have that kind of time. That's a full time job, so I think for you to do that and just it's proof of work. Right, you make the animation, you get credited. Content creators are going to reach out and be like what can I pay you to do 20 of those a month? And it was just. It's very simple.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually, yeah, actually just to tell that, because not only this type of service, but again I was doing sales and entrepreneurship for almost a decade and again I was thinking strategically, not just service and whatever happens. But I made the animations and I tagged the podcast, I tagged the host, I tagged the interview and even that thing alone. They connected to me when I followed them and they started following me. But two of the biggest podcast out there reach out to me to do animations for them. Actually, what Bitcoin did approached me and they said are you doing this? No, not Peter. Danny. Danny approached me. Are you doing this profession? Yeah, and I said, no, but I can do it for you if you like them.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, it didn't happen and I'm glad that it didn't happen actually. But again it is again creating those opportunities and at some point one of them would be the perfect timing, the perfect setup, the perfect exchange between you. But I was doing this, creating opportunities for whatever I was trying to do and, yeah, I expanded my network there and whenever I connected to one of those people, I said, oh, I watched your podcast, I would love to meet you someday, and one of the first people that actually responded to that type of message was Jeff Booth and he said I'm coming to Bulgaria next month and I said what.
Speaker 2:I don't know about this. How can I miss that? Yeah, and one of the reasons that I missed that? Because the Bitcoin conference was actually named Crypto Revolution and that's why it was under my radar, but even though with this name, it was only about Bitcoin. But again, very bad branding for the two Bitcoins.
Speaker 2:And when I found out that I checked it, I said OK. Then I went back into Jeff Booth and I wrote to Greg Foss and I asked him are you coming? Because I knew that there were close friends. And he said, yes, are you going to the VIP? And they said, of course. And I bought the VIP ticket and for that whole month I started OK, I'm stopping the animation.
Speaker 2:This is my biggest opportunity. It's coming to me. I didn't force this or anything. I need to strategize a lot how to approach that to be again, how can I service those? So I have again to create the opportunity to potentially ask for a contribution as a job or whatever it is, and I created it. I thought it like this In order to create the opportunity, first I have to get their attention. Once I get their attention, I have to create almost instantly that signal that I understand Bitcoin. And once I send that signal and understand it, then I can tell my story. I connect with them. And I was thinking how can I give as much as I can with that, because I'll have maybe half an hour with them. It's again very short span, but there isn't a bigger opportunity than face to face. Even virtually, it's not the same and I said, ok, I can't give them animations there, but, ok, I will create Bitcoin cookies and I ordered in one bakery here and with these Bitcoin cookies to give to all the speakers that are in the conference.
Speaker 1:Really, you got my attention, love food.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but also I bought one shirt that was there are 3.9 billion women in the world, but there are only 21 million. Bitcoin and the tagline beneath it is I can get a girlfriend later. I knew that this will attract eyes and even though it's very cheesy, but again you have to position yourselves for those opportunities and again I was thinking to attract attention and it worked perfectly. Also, I created business cards for myself that were intensely created for Bitcoin, with the orange peel about me, about what I kind of want to do, and again I created this even in my CVs that I said I orange peel people effectively. How do you want to use this skill in your company? And that was the business card that I created with my LinkedIn profile and stuff like that, and that worked awfully in the conference. But again I was thinking how can I create these type of moments or can create other?
Speaker 1:opportunities.
Speaker 2:And the of those three strategies. The shirt works perfectly because I heard Greg Vos's voice, greg Vos's voice in the hall. I went out. He was speaking with somebody. He saw my shirt, he laughed. He introduced me to Jeff Vos. He wanted the picture with me, not the other way around, and it just then it came. It became easier and easier. I started talking with them in the VIP and again I didn't ask for it, but the kindness of those people, the person they're awesome and shout out to them. Jeff Vos said by himself let's keep in touch. I said that's all that I wanted.
Speaker 1:And Jeff Booth means it Jeff Booth when he? I haven't met him but I imagine to someone like Jeff Booth, when he says let's keep in touch, he 100% means it.
Speaker 2:I would imagine. And that's again this beauty of, first of all, his character, his mission of being of service to other people. But he said, like I can look through people very quickly, and I think he recognized that I'm in that service mentality and he naturally said, okay, this could be an important person in the future. And I sent him an invitation here and there, maybe once a month. That was keeping in touch. And three and a half months later he said Breezy is looking for a person. Send them their CV. And again, it wasn't the next week I wasn't pursuing or anything. It happened.
Speaker 2:The opportunity came and I found out that he knew about this position because he's an investor in this company and this was the time for me on my side, Okay, this is a proof, bitcoin. And I send the CV. And out of everybody, it wasn't given just because Jeff Booth opened the door. That doesn't mean that I didn't fight with it, but out of everybody, out of everybody, he already decided to go with me.
Speaker 2:And again, I told him again about this story of mine and once I started working in Breeze, again I was like this is the team that I was searching for for 36 years, like it wasn't about the company. It wasn't about religion. It is again about this community of very smart, intelligent people on a mission to be of service of fellow humanity. And I thought that's why I say that I had to be an entrepreneur, because I thought that this is how I will create this community. But once you find that community that you're trying to create, it doesn't matter that I'm not an entrepreneur Maybe I'll be an entrepreneur or on something on the side, but still it's whatever. The answer is the partner that you are put in this earth.
Speaker 1:Oh, Ivan, I bloody love you. You're so great. Just everything about that. I mean even people that are not Bitcoiners, who don't know who Jeff Booth is, who don't know who Greg Foss is. Just imagine whatever industry you are in and who the most prolific, high-profile names are that generally are respected by everybody. Those are two of them in Bitcoin and I think by living the way you've lived from probably the worst thing that could possibly happen to a human being, you've literally attracted.
Speaker 1:It took time and no one could have said how long, and you never do know how long. And I was thinking about this before. A friend of mine this week has lost her mum. She was sick for a very long time, but I have lost a step-parent. He was in his 80s. So as much as it was a shock, he was in his 80s, like he had a good life and I don't think.
Speaker 1:One thing that occurred to me the other day and I'm going to write about this, is that you said that you didn't necessarily deal with the grief at the time. But one thing I think happens a lot to people and I put myself in that bucket. I didn't start thinking differently about life until experience the grief of death, of losing someone, and it's interesting because it feels like that is where some people need to get to to live their best life, and it's very sad because I don't know what it. I need to pull it apart a bit more and articulate my point a bit better, but it's like we don't start living how we should live until it's proven that we don't live forever. Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 1:It's that kind of concept of so many people just living like they'll never run out of time. And we do. We die, you know we die, the people around us die, and it's just like going through something like that. I think, whether you thought about that or not at the time, it's brought you absolutely a reason for living that you are so passionate about, and I think that just shines through. So let's, let's move on. It's been an hour of deep.
Speaker 2:Just to help. Yeah, about this. Yeah, sorry, just to help, because immediately you came to me a particular quote that maybe you want to. I don't even know the author, but it will help you about the article that you're researching and writing. The quote is people live two lives and you start the second one when you realize you have only one. I don't know who said it, but it's exactly about your topic, so maybe it will give you a good insights about what you want to express.
Speaker 1:We haven't really touched on the article that you're writing or you mentioned you're going to start working on, so be sure to send it to me when you've done it and I'll add it to the show notes for anybody that listens to this later. We've covered it and touched on it a bit. I think you were talking about how your take on the lightning network and how Bitcoin works, and this might be a bit too technical for a lot of people to fully understand if they're not into Bitcoin already. But just touch on your thoughts around human behavior in work.
Speaker 2:When they're paid on.
Speaker 1:Bitcoin standard versus the fiat system, where you can rock up to work and have a salary and get paid for doing the minimum. Just summarise what this article is going to be about. I'll share it for you and make sure people get it.
Speaker 2:I would say because it's a bigger concept than I'm working with a writer to express, because I try to write it but I'm not very well versed in writing. So it will take a few months to put it out there, most likely. But once I started working on Breeze and even though I got a grasp of Bitcoin, then the lightning network is this another beast of technical complexity? And I had to start realising, even though I'm not a programmer, I still need to fairly well understand it so I can do my job and also to express it well for other people to get on with it. But in four months working I started realising and connecting other thoughts, not just about the lightning network but about this lightning settlement, because in the Fiat system, most of the jobs, especially the labour market, doesn't receive time for work, because work in the universe doesn't mean that somebody pays you, that you go. Work is just to show it. But if I want to do work I have to reach out and take this water. I'm doing the physical definition, force times, displacement. This is work and I would say for everybody that wants to go out there and be in a Bitcoin job or whatever job they want to, don't ask permission to go to work, like go and actually do work and the value will follow. But once I understood that there is a disconnect in the labour force about this because people receive money, so value for their time, most of the cases not for the work done. Because, again, through my experience me being in a lot of industry, trying to navigate and be self-sufficient on my end I noticed I wasn't as much irritated when I did three times as much to the person next to me and we received the same salary. How is that fair competition? There is no free market in the labour force. And also, when I got irritated is when somebody gets promoted before me and I still wasn't attentive of something, but I thought that it was unfair and in the physical definition it's not really. But again, it's this human psychology, politics in the company, micro dynamics and all those sorts of things. And again, even though annoying, I wanted to play even that game because I was aiming somewhere higher, not just oh, why are you working so much? If you work three times as much, nobody is going to pay you as more and that's why, again, I was seeing it but not really realizing that that was their incentive, because the employee that receives money for their time, whether it's a lawyer, whether it's somebody in the store selling shoes, whether it's a construction work and laying bricks, they all receive money for their time. So their incentive is to do as little work as possible for as long as possible, because that's how they optimize the most money for the least actual work. Not again four times displacement.
Speaker 2:And now through this lightning instance settlement, this could be changed because we have instance settlement. That means, let's say that same example somebody sells a shirt in a store that he is an employee. Now he doesn't have to receive a salary once a month, once a week or whatever the case may be, and some type of a bonus that somebody else decides whether, whatever. But I sell one shirt. That means I receive 20% of that individual sale. The business received, let's say, 50%, the manager receives 10% and everything is pointed in the same direction.
Speaker 2:And there isn't that conflict between employers, managers and people that receive money for their time, because a lot of managers are yeah, and it's again. The incentive is exactly the same through everybody in that company and managers wouldn't have to manage actually people. Because that's the thing that I realized when I was a manager. I didn't realize that that is the piece that I'm fighting for, that they receive time for their money. And I was thinking how can I stimulate them to be like me, to put their best foot forward? And I give them other perks back, not just money.
Speaker 2:Because when I was managing people I was saying to motivate people the cheapest way is money. No, the most expensive way is money. If you give them purpose, if you give them bonding with the team, there are so many other non-monetary values that they would appreciate and actually they are going to keep them there. Not only that, they will perform, but they will stay. But with this other incentive, supervisors have to supervise and catch them while they are not working.
Speaker 2:And there is again this tension they don't promote the proper people, so the proper people leave, the most lazy people stay and all this misincentive and constructing this dynamic. That's un-useful. But with this split payment, instant settlement, you don't have to manage all of that. You just let them be and there are no more employees. But everybody is a freelancer in a company. Somebody from the outside comes in for two hours and says oh, I'm going to sell 20 shirts, I receive my money instantly for each individual sale, and somebody that lays their own folds the clothes or whatever they are trying to hide that they are not working, yeah, keeping busy, they don't receive anything, and play that over time.
Speaker 2:Now this lightning network will give all of that to be again incentivized the same way. And on, the other thing that I realized even more recently is that the labor force is how, again, they keep us a little bit enslaved. Because the labor force are first of all, taxed the most of the time Again, for this, the actual work that they are doing, they are taxed the most. Also, they have this pressure of the managers that they have to comply. They are not fighting for anything, they have to comply, which is a completely different dynamic to want to have the best people ever and even to extrapolate, if you have some type of competition, this natural free market competition, if you introduce this in the labor force. I was thinking is there a place to see this and to prove this? And yes, there is. In sports, we have these two type of forces there. The monetary value there is again this type of for per game, maybe you have bonuses for scoring goals or baskets or whatever. But the free market competition is everybody is fighting for the trophy and you cannot not do work to score a basket or to score a goal. And because there is this underneath incentive of everybody needs to compete. Now I understood why the best athletes receive so much more because they are fighting to be the best in every single sport out there. Because it's this natural competition, free market. The full sport is elevated because the best are out competing.
Speaker 2:The past so, and the other force I was thinking is entrepreneurs. There's a free market competition for entrepreneurs because nobody will come to oh, it will be lazy and the money will float. And salespeople like they're not directly. Still, somebody receives salary, but with commissions. It's again this underneath mentality and that's why salespeople, the best of them, receive millions. Because they're fighting to be the best, because they realize if I don't do it, like nothing will come. But in the labor force we are submitted to the state imposing their wills to us, and a secondary will is the company. Then is the third, the supervisor or the personal manager and like, and again, it's just because of this small thing that people receive money for their time. And that's basically the concept of the article. But I would love to ask, to be asked questions if something is unclear or disagree.
Speaker 1:Thank you've made it crystal clear, and the sad part is that the majority of people are living in that paradigm but they don't realize, and I think this is one thing that I don't. I am not a technical person. I'm kind of digital savvy because it's what I do, but certainly not to the level of I can't. I couldn't explain how the technicalities of the blockchain work or the other sorry, the Bitcoin ledger, or you know the technicalities or the technological advancements of a lot of Bitcoin, but I don't need to. All I need to understand is everything you've just explained, which is, until people understand what value for value is rather than value for time, they're not going to wake up.
Speaker 1:And because everybody is conditioned to believe these cliches like time is money no, it's not the but, but we've all been brainwashed into that so that we are working harder because the people that own the companies that might use those cliches that want you giving them their time, they want your value, but you're not seeing your value.
Speaker 1:You're seeing your time, and that's everything I'm about is like, just be you and you can get paid, but you've got to let go of that time for money constraint or that paradigm, because value for value is the result of your time, the result of your skills, the result of what you bring to the table, and that it doesn't matter if you know the best companies that to me, that have a good culture which is a lot of where I get my data from with Gallup polls they study workplace culture, workplace engagement.
Speaker 1:It's like until you start asking people what they want other than money, you're not going to get the culture that you want, because, like you said, a lot of people are willing to work for an average salary if they feel that sense of purpose, and just by allowing them to work from home, you could be saving them enough money in their fuel or their travel costs that they can actually get by. Maybe not forever, but yeah, that value for value conversation is a big part of what I'm going to be writing about and trying to talk more about, because your value as a human is not dictated by the time you spend doing something and, like Jeff talks about, in his book.
Speaker 1:it's like we should be working less Technology. With the right skills, you can work less. So, yeah, good one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going Of course, one last thing to finish it up. Yeah, one last thing is just because it's this dynamic, I was thinking the other effects because of it, because there is no sense of competition in the labor force. Yeah, the first of all, they're stealing a lot of monetary value, but because there is no competition, we're becoming these lazy, obedient machines that are very easy to comply with, because if you go to, let's say, some type of martial arts and or MMA and you want to fight and be the other guy, there is a competition there. If your game is not better than the other person, yeah, now imagine that nobody can actually fight. What would be the like?
Speaker 2:This is not logical, and because we are not actually training to be the best, that means that you're much more inclined to get the free state thing, to get the abuse from your employer, to get whatever. I would say if you want to get out of this, start again. Don't ask permission to work, actually work, not time for money. Go do actual work, increase those skills, increase your actual force, and then less and less people will abuse you from everywhere. I'm saying that because you're weak. That means that you're much more exploitable.
Speaker 1:Oh, sound bite right there. Okay, you have been amazing. I love your story. I love everything you've just given us or given me. Even it's a lot of stuff that I'm nodding my head and agreeing with, but it's always good to hear it from someone else's perspective. So, thank you, but we need to know about Breeze. So let's just spend maybe five, 10 minutes.
Speaker 1:This is going to be a much longer episode than I'm used to, but I actually did download Breeze on my phone oh, that's my partner Before the call, because I thought I'd have a quick look because I heard you say it was a POS. And one thing I have wanted to find and I know there's other point of sale apps and technology out there for Bitcoin but one thing that I was thinking recently I love going to markets and I love, I love where I live and I want to get away from my computer more because I don't need to be at my computer all day and I'm thinking God, I live in an area that's full of small businesses, of markets, and it's very alternative. A little bit further down south I live quite near Byron Bay, which is very alternative, and there are so many people and businesses down there that just haven't found Bitcoin yet that have all the values of not wanting the state. There's so many that are cash only for the same reasons that we would tell them to Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:So I'm constantly thinking how can I, when I'm standing there, give them a point of sale app? And I downloaded Breathe and I was like this is it? This is exactly what every small business needs. When I'm standing there buying my coffee and I say, do you take Bitcoin? This is what I'm now going to give them. So I'm already orange pill, blue pill, whatever Breeze pill is.
Speaker 1:So, just quickly, I just want to make sure people know that, because if you're a business owner and you want to accept Bitcoin, okay, I have some questions. But I was asking questions in my head as I was downloading and using it and I kept finding that it did it. So my first question was oh, I can't delete. I can't delete an item I've added for sale. Oh, yes, I can did that and I just kept and it's like it's not. I'm sure it's not perfect, but it's pretty damn good and it's very user friendly. So, if you're a business owner that wants to start accepting Bitcoin, download Breeze, have a play. First question I have for you, because it also plays podcasts I'm doing your job for you here. I've asked you a question and I'm answering it myself.
Speaker 1:I think I'm like a testimonial, because I literally just used it yeah thank you for that. You give me your version, and then I'll keep going with my enthusiasm for how good it is. I'll tell us about this.
Speaker 2:This is yeah. This is the real big admiration for the founders of the company, because they didn't start okay, I want money or I want things. There were Bitcoin orgies and they said we want to create this Bitcoin thing to become not only store, the value, but medium and exchange. And when they read the yeah, when they read the lightning white paper, they say, okay, this is the potential. It's still very unclear, but they decided this is the mission to give Bitcoin to 8 billion people, because there are a lot of parts of the world where they can't afford the transaction fees on the blockchain or whatever the case may be. But they said we are not going to take shortcuts and we are not going to be a custodial solution because right now that you have Breeze, you're operating a full lightning note. You don't set up Raspberry Pi, you don't open channels, you don't manage the liquidity there.
Speaker 2:All that is created through what they coined the lightning service provider. So Breeze is this lightning service provider, just like the internet. For the internet to access it, you need a device, a browser and an internet service provider. So Breeze wants to be this lightning service provider that takes care of all the complexity on the lightning and just gives you this user-friendly interface that now you can yes, you can transact Bitcoin fairly easily and cheaply Right now. If you receive your first transaction in Breeze, you will see that the first receiving you will pay a fee. So that is the thing that you're paying for, because Breeze is opening a channel for you. You don't know what's happening technically and you pay that fee to open the channel for Breeze, to open the channel for you, but then you receive and send for extremely cheaply. When I order in to people around me and they also use Breeze, I send them 100,000 Satoshi's and I pay one Satoshi for the fee. That's ridiculous. Right, just stop there a sec.
Speaker 1:Just stop there, a sec.
Speaker 1:Just for a reality check for any business owner who's not a Bitcoiner who might want to just play around with. I'm going to be taking it straight to my local coffee shop and being. Let me show you this Just to give them context, because most businesses who use a POS, the biggest objection is always the merchant fees that they pay. It's like 3% and that's why when you sometimes go and pay for things and you ask, can I use American Express, they're like no, it's this percentage. Or in some shops, in particularly small businesses, they just pass it on to the customer and they'll have a little sticker on their card machine that says paying by card is 1.5% or 2%. So I set up just to play around with the point of sale. I set up a $70 Australian dollar product. I added one to my invoice or whatever. Just name it Test.
Speaker 1:I'm doing this right now in real time. I said it was $70. Let's say that. Let's say it's $100 actually. Then that's going to be easier to work out the percentage. Let's say $100 for a product. I add that item. I can now use this as a checkout, basically. So someone comes up, they want to buy my $100 product. I add one, charge $100.
Speaker 2:If it is here we go.
Speaker 1:A set up fee of $2,500 or $1 is applied to this invoice. Is that one off or is it every transaction?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's exactly what I mentioned. This is because you never received a breeze previously to open the channel. This is the fee to pay. But once you receive it, now you can spend it and it's this ridiculously low fees. But again, you can receive up to $4 million in breeze. We put this limitation because this is the state of the lightning network currently to send this amount of value but to receive it, you only pay fees if you have to open a channel. So let's say, for example, you send this $70 to a breeze, you're paying the $2,500 once and you start spending from breeze this amount. That means that you're sending the statutes on the other side of the channel. So if you want to, let's say you open the channel for $70, you spend $50. So somebody can send you back $50 or a little bit more for free. You're not paying anything because you don't open any channels. So if you send yourself, let's say, 500,000 satoshis or a little bit more in breeze and you spend part of it, you can receive up to that amount for free.
Speaker 1:That's what I. That's exactly right. The person that is paying yeah. That makes sense to me. It might be a bit much for someone else to understand, but it helps me be able to go and show it to someone else, because basically what you're saying is, once you've got, you've used it, once, I'm open to receive that amount again without paying any fees. So if I, if I charge a customer $100, it's cost me just over 1% the first time. But now I can receive up to $100.
Speaker 2:0.4. I mean there's a minimum fee, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was one point it was $1.1 and 4 cents on a $100 product, so it's just over 1%, but what you're saying is that that opens my channel. I can now spend $100 from my breeze wallet, but I can also receive up to $100 worth of transactions.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and a little bit more, because even breeze is opening the channel, yeah, and putting some liquidity on our side so you can receive it. And I would say sorry.
Speaker 1:Would it be one transaction of $100 or as many transactions as I want up to $100, like 20 transactions of $5, or is it per transaction? Whatever I want.
Speaker 2:No, it's not per transaction. Like let's say you can receive it and let's say $1,000 and you pay a smaller fee. You pay 0.4% Just because you're paying this 1.4%, because that's the minimum amount to open a channel. Again, this is the vertical complexity to understand what is this fee for. But the main point is, once you open those channels and let's say you receive, you open the channels to a million subs and you start using it. You're not going to pay other fees to open channels, you are just using it and paying and receiving back. And again, the complexity is it's non-custodial. So breeze doesn't have access to your funds, unlike Satoshi or unlike other custodial solutions.
Speaker 2:So it's your full node, you're in full control and you can send it to your own chain address. So not only that, you can buy from Mopay, I think, directly from the wallet with your fiat, and there are a lot of other things. But I would say definitely for the newbies, I can compare it to Spiral Wallet on desktop To send and receive. It's fairly easy. But there are other things much more valuable. Where breeze is valuable, just expand it a little by little and test out here and there. And the real, real good thing and that's what we focus on internally is just like you said, there is a podcast, there is a POS system and there is a wallet and those three things operate through the same balance.
Speaker 2:Now we are building an SDK that every developer out there can build an application. They don't know anything about the Lightning Network, they just put in our code and they can receive in their application Sats. And now imagine that Wallet of Soto. You have a different balance. Let's say Albi, you have a different balance. Guys are like all the places they are Lightning Apps. But now we are going to integrate Lightning Network into Apps and let's say you have 10 different applications and they all are connected to your personal node, so you don't have to open other channels, let's say other wallets.
Speaker 1:You can ask it as a note. We are probably getting into technological stuff that I can't keep up with.
Speaker 2:Sorry about that. No, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:I think it's a great advert for breeze. Even just I will be referring it because it is such a simple thing to set up and I mean I would use it as a wallet. But it's perfect for if I was to say to anybody that I'm coaching who does know Bitcoin, who doesn't yet know about breeze, if they want to charge for their products, their services, whatever they are offering as a freelancer, as a creator who is learning to be you and get paid, use breeze. You can send the invoice through email, you can send the invoice through your camera, do whatever, but you have literally got a check out right there and it's in Bitcoin, it's custodial, it's brilliant. So I'm so happy that you're working for a good product and a team that you love. I think everything about your story is super inspiring and moving and impactful, and I will be. I don't care that this is an hour and a half long it's longer than normal, but thank you so much for your time. I will.
Speaker 2:Where can people find you? Now you're welcome when can we find you on breeze? I would say we are fairly everywhere, but me personally the most engaging place currently is on Nostar. You can find me at NACU 2000 at nostarplebscom, so reach out there. But I'm also everywhere because I'm the other person that's more public in breeze, so LinkedIn, Twitter, I'm searching about there also.
Speaker 1:So I'll add your breeze, I'll add the breeze company handles and you're more than likely the person behind them. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yep, me and the CEO.
Speaker 1:Yep, oh great. Thank you so much, brilliant chat. I'm glad I didn't know anything about you, or not too much about you, because it definitely makes for more explorative conversation, so I'm sure we'll keep in touch. Thanks again.
Speaker 2:Yes, we will. I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:So thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you. Hello, my friend, as someone who's not the best at finishing the things they start, thank you so much for making it to the end of this podcast. I hope you found it helpful, Get piqued your curiosity on something new or even just made you smile for a few seconds. If any of those things apply here, then all my regular tech challenges and tantrums are well worth it to get this to you.
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