Be You. Get Paid.

#016 WRONGTHINK: Writings On Dystopia w/ John Goddard

• Amy Taylor (& friends!) • Episode 16

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"For a long time I didn't have the confidence to say out loud what I wanted to say or publish any writing. It's not even that I didn't have the confidence - it's just that I didn't want to be faced with backlash. I thought that it was best to keep what I thought to myself and it just got to a point - and this was only 6months ago - where I was just like 'Fuck - I can't keep it in any more - I've just got to say it, I've just got to put it all out!' And now all I'm doing is writing all this stuff. I can't keep it in because it's corrosive to your insides to keep what you want to say in for too long!"
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John Goddard is a lawyer who also happens to write fast fiction for conspiracy theorists and degenerates. He has built a Twitter/X following of over 10k in under 6months.

His short stories are dystopian vignettes of not-so-distant futures where citizens are taxed at 80%, State-mandated euthanasia is the leading cause of death, and Digital Dollars are designed to enslave the populous.

Totalitarian fictions aside, John has grown his online following by being a proponent of libertarian ideas. He frequently publishes widely read polemics on condemning the current government agenda, which appears intent on destroying personal rights and freedoms.

His graphic novel ‘Life in the People’s Republic of Victoria’ is currently available as a free download from his Substack.

Follow John on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nonestlex
Subscribe to his Substack: https://twitter.com/nonestlex
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Amy Taylor:

You are pathetic, written by an utter fuckwit. I'll put money in your coffee account if you stop writing. Let's start with that. Let's start with the what people think part. So how did that feel, john, john Goddard getting those comments?

John Goddard:

I just thought that was so funny. For a long time I didn't have the confidence to say out loud what I wanted to say, or I didn't have confidence to publish any writing or anything like that. Or actually, it's not even that I didn't have the confidence, it's just that I didn't want to be faced with backlash, or I didn't want to. I thought that it was best to keep what I thought to myself. And it just got to a point and this was only six months ago and I was just like fuck, I can't keep it anymore. I just got to say it, I'm just going to put it all out. And now what I'm doing is writing all this stuff because it just has to like. I can't keep it in because it actually is corrosive to your insides if you keep what you want to say in for too long.

Amy Taylor:

So true? Yeah Well, thank you for tuning in to the BU Get Paid podcast. My name is Amy Taylor and I have one goal by being in your ears to explore what it means to create a life of personal and financial freedom and happiness in a brave new world, a world that many of us may be struggling with at times, but also one that's full of opportunity for those who are open to it. My guests are all walking their talk with this stuff, meaning they're earning money from businesses, brands and platforms they have built themselves. For most of them, it's usually involved making some unconventional choices and some big ballsy leaps of faith, and I'll be doing my best to extract the lessons they've learned along the way in the hopes of inspiring you to consider doing similar Now. This podcast is proudly supported by some very carefully selected partners that I might interrupt the chat with, but I only ever recommend products and services that I am a customer of or user of myself, in other words, stuff I believe is worth taking the time to tell you about Now. There's definitely a chance you'll hear some grown-up language on this podcast, but, most importantly, anything discussed by myself or my guests is personal opinion for conversational and educational purposes only and should not be taken as financial or investment advice. Okay, housekeeping done, let's get into the good stuff.

Amy Taylor:

My whole message, with the tagline of this podcast being freedom and happiness in a brave new world, is focusing on the ways that people are making different choices, the way they're thinking in what I'm calling, I guess, a post-covid world or a post-pandemic world, because so many things have changed. Some people don't seem to want to acknowledge that you are someone who is nailing the what you're referring to as wrong think, but just channeling your thoughts, your opinions, into a platform of questioning thinking, but with satire, comedy and quite extreme views, which I love, everything about all of that. But I wanted to start with something that was a bit different, because I think, certainly from my experience anyway, one of the biggest things that holds most people back from doing anything, whether it be just a goal, a dream, a vision, taking a different path, starting a business, jumping out of a career into a new one, anything that might be a change the biggest thing that holds people back is the fear of what people think, whether we know it or not, and so I wanted to start with some of the thoughts and reviews from some of your readers at the front of your book, the People's Republic of Victoria, and you let me. You can talk about afterwards, but it was. They were fascinating, these reviews in the first couple of pages of your book, which we'll link in the show notes.

Amy Taylor:

So here's one from Rex Rainer, one you are pathetic. Then we have one from Cla2. I don't know what that that user name's all about. Might be a name from overseas of Scandinavia. Anyway, they have written whoever wrote this drivel should be at the war crimes tribunal alongside Ben Robert Smith. Don't know who he is, but sounds like a compliment. And then we have one that I really like, written by an utter fuckwit, but with surprising lucidity and elegance of style. That comes from fact checker GFM. And I think this one's my favorite because it could be a typo that you've made when copying and pasting, or it could be their typo, but it starts with Christ. You're a terrible writer. Terrible writer as well as an awful polemicist is that how you say that?

Amy Taylor:

yeah, I'll put money in your coffee account if you stop writing. That comes from Tom Ray. Underscore a you. So it's nice to read out these people's names, because they've publicly tweeted I'm assuming it was tweets. They usually delete their accounts or change their handles once they get called out on these kind of comments, but I thought let's start with that. Let's start with the what people think part, because probably doesn't get a lot worse than that on the internet and if you are going to put yourself out there on the internet, it's going to happen and it's usually one percent of the feedback we get on the positive stuff that we put out there. But you have to be willing to take it. So how did that feel, john? John got odd getting those comments.

John Goddard:

I just thought that was so funny. I loved him. I love them so much. And then I started, um, uh, I don't know, I think when I first started putting stuff on the internet, I thought it was funny and I would just repost them. And then I put them together into my um like wall of fame. I just kept saving them all into this folder to go and read, um, and yeah, then obviously, like opened that book with I don't know. I just thought it was funny. I don't know what else to say.

John Goddard:

Um, I loved it, I love it, I don't think there's like I don't think there's been any one that has said anything on the internet that has actually made me feel distressed, yet I mean touch wood, touch wood and like all, that stuff is funny. So, yeah, yeah, that's what I think about that.

Amy Taylor:

I'm just adjusting my microphone because I think something's about to fall on it and make it make lots of noise.

Amy Taylor:

Um, we're both as prepared as each other for this one yeah, good so, yeah, I'm glad you found it funny, because I certainly did, um, but let's go back. So I know that we we had a chat before this and we discussed how your a lawyer by not necessarily by trade, but you studied to be a lawyer um decided you didn't want to go into law, went into real estate, I believe, selling real estate. You're 13 now. Is that right? Am I allowed to too?

Amy Taylor:

yeah, you can say that that's fine just to give people a sense of who you are. Um, and because I don't want to use up the time in these podcasts now to sort of go over someone's life history, I've realized that there's probably a lot more meat we can get into about the journey of the new path that you're taking or have yeah, cool and decided didn't want to be in real estate.

Amy Taylor:

You were living in Melbourne, you know the city. Globally that was probably seen as the world was the longest lockdown, um, and therefore a lot of polarizing opinions and a lot of your writing has been about, I guess, a fictional character, but your, your POV as that person, if, if things were taken to the extreme, is that right what the book, the book and your writings have kind of been taken, taking inspiration from the lockdowns and if we fast forward, I think it's 2029 what? What could the world look like? Did?

John Goddard:

yeah, so that all continued yeah, 100. So I was living in Melbourne up until about a week before the super long lockdown. Yeah, um, and I just saw what was going on. I was like there is no way I'm letting this guy lock me in my house for another six months um, yeah, this guy did Andrews, the state premier.

John Goddard:

For those who aren't in Australia, yep yes, the dictator of the people's republic of Victoria and I was just like fuck this. So I left and had like a couple months off work, um, and went up to Queensland to live with my family for a bit. And then my wife and I moved to Adelaide because it was open and it was free and it was nice um. And I went back to Melbourne a few months ago and I was walking down Smith Street and I was just like looking at it and everyone just looked depressed. I don't know if it was me, if this is this is just my um perspective, but everyone looked depressed. All the buildings are crumbling, um, and I think we paid. There were five of us that went out for dinner and the dinner was like $1,200 or something. It was crazy and I just all about it, was like five of you yeah, yeah, 12.

John Goddard:

It was a shit dinner. It was the worst dinner I've ever had in my life, um, at a restaurant that used to be good before the lockdown it's just $240 a head for dinner yeah, for not a good dinner, just an average dinner.

Amy Taylor:

I haven't been to Melbourne a long time and I won't be going at this rate. Carry on, yeah, and that's not alcohol.

John Goddard:

I think three people at that dinner didn't drink. So, um, wow, okay, anyway, I had that experience. And then I wrote a tweet that was life of the people's republic of Victoria and started off like um, you know, I'm looking out the window with 86 tram which goes up and down Smith Street and like there's crumbling buildings or whatever, and that got, uh, like shared a lot of whatever and a lot of people commented on it. Lots of people thought it was funny and then everyone from Melbourne like lost their mind, being like how do you say that Melbourne sucks anyway? And so that's what I turned into that, um graphic novel. I just expanded on that, on that tweet so when was that?

Amy Taylor:

how long ago? Was that the first tweet, when you made the observation? Um, I think that was in April oh, so that okay, of this year or may. It might have been May so April this year I think it was April when we spoke before you mentioned that's when you kind of started tweeting a bit more. So just for context for anyone, when we get into the the building of following or the monetizing a business or a following online, you've gone from. How many followers did you have on Twitter when you made that tweet a?

Amy Taylor:

couple hundred a couple hundred and we're now we're recording this. This is so ironic that we're recording this today on it's the, the referendum, the yes vote, which has caused a lot of polarized opinions in Australia, but we're recording it that day. Um, you're now sitting at 10.6 thousand, so 10600 followers on on Twitter. So let's start there in terms of the being you part of, be you get paid. What happened next?

John Goddard:

um, so that was. So that tweet was the first one that got popular, or that one got really the first one. They got really popular one before that they got sort of popular, popular and I was like, oh well, maybe writing longer stuff on Twitter is actually something that you can do. And people like um, I wrote something called Australian Civil War when I had like one or two hundred followers, I think, and, and that got shared around a little bit anyway. And then after that I just started posting long stories um, every day, every couple of days, and yeah, I mean I didn't do anything beyond that, I just wrote a lot and it resonated with some people and and that it just yeah, I don't know, that's all that happened really yeah, and I think you mentioned you mentioned to me when we, when we chatted before once, that you started to get a lot of people DMing you like here's how you can add this many followers to your account.

Amy Taylor:

And you know that's what happens when you start getting traction quickly. Just for anyone who I know there's a lot of people in my audience who was at the the starting phase of building something online and you do you just suddenly get all these the quick fix, which is a theme that I guess runs into some of your writing with. With society always wanting the quick fixes, it's no different online, right? You suddenly get people telling you I can give you 20 000 followers overnight, but your view on that was to not take them up on their offer, because why do you think it was that you just kept going and people were resonating this weird like why just never bought into any of that stuff?

John Goddard:

so a lot of people would tell you um, you know, if this is how you gain the algorithm, or this is how you get more people to get more people to see your stuff, and I just um, it didn't. My experience wasn't in line with what they were saying. They said this is the way that you get more followers, and I was like, well, no, I get more followers when I write something.

Amy Taylor:

it's good, and so I just Should we just stop there? Let's just stop there everyone. I will get more followers when I write something that's good. There you go, there's the podcast done 10 minutes 38 seconds. Okay, sorry, carry on.

John Goddard:

Done, pack it up, we're on Done done.

Amy Taylor:

You are welcome, guys.

John Goddard:

Yeah, so yeah, that's it. Actually, I started writing something last night about and I don't know where it'll go, but about whether what I don't know I guess, what lens or what criteria do you use as something that's a piece of work or a piece of creative work, that's good. So I wrote something last week I think I published it last week called Lost in the Labyrinth, and I think that's the best thing that I've written during this spate of releasing stuff online. But it didn't get that many likes and it didn't get shared around that much and so, well, yeah, I mean that's the thing, and I actually didn't care because I was like, well, that's actually like my favorite thing that I've written and I spent like a lot more time on it than I have on anything else. So it's funny, but whereas I can write something in five or 10 minutes, it just gets shared a whole lot. If I write something like paying out, whatever I choose to pay out, that day, I've had the same thing happen.

Amy Taylor:

You can pour your heart and soul into something for hours and it's like a fart in the wind for want of a better expression online, or you can just bang out an opinion in a moment of just either a moment of fuck it, let's see where this goes, or a moment of I'm really passionate and I'm just gonna throw it out there without really thinking, and it can go gangbusters, it's the internet, right?

John Goddard:

Well, yeah, but I think it's dangerous to judge the value of what you do based on how much it gets shared on Twitter, which is why I'm actually trying to do less stuff on Twitter now, because I think I mean, I like Twitter a lot, but obviously I think the algorithm is focused on a certain type of content and people go there for a certain type of thing as well.

John Goddard:

They're not necessarily going there for positivity, and oh, actually that's. I don't wanna say that, but you know, it's just one thing, and so, yeah, I think you've gotta have various outlets.

Amy Taylor:

It's interesting that you say that I wasn't planning on the conversation going this way at all, but someone tweeted the other day I think it was Peter McCormack, in the Bitcoin space, wrote how creators and influencers are being rewarded for driving toxicity and polarity or polarization, and I was like I had to question that, because I've always had the mentality especially, I guess, being in the digital space that the platforms aren't the problem, it's the people, and so you know, at the end of the day, we're the humans. Algorithms is machinery and, yes, they're programmed to reward engagement. The problem, I think, is that there's not enough people overriding the negative, fear-based content with happy, positive content, because, like you just said, people don't necessarily go to Twitter for that or go to social media for that, but if you look for it, it's there. And so what? I'm trying to steer away from now and I'm as guilty as anyone and get sucked into these debates, or especially when you're talking about something like Bitcoin or you're in the space of finance, where you don't wanna watch the news. But it's the real world and if you don't acknowledge it, how can you do something about it to put yourself in the best position to survive it? You know there's plenty of positive stuff out there the algorithms. The algorithm rewards engagement, but it's up to us to decide what we're talking about. That creates engagement.

Amy Taylor:

Does that make sense? So it's only gonna change or it's only gonna feel like there's more positivity out there if the people who are happy and positive get out there and share it, which is what I'm all about. It's like if you've got something you're passionate about, I don't care what it is, how niche it might be, but if you're passionate about it, talk about it, put it on social media. That's when you can create a business around it. But if you just you know, if no one knows about it, then no one will buy it, read it, watch it. Do you know what I mean?

John Goddard:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's what I've been struggling with. Oh, not struggling, but I've looked at some things that I've posted. I'm like that was just kind of cheap. It was cheap and I knew that it would get a good reaction and I honestly actually don't really care if people share my stuff or people follow me. I actually don't.

Amy Taylor:

So that's why it's working.

John Goddard:

Well, that's the thing. I just like writing right, and I write because that's how I think through things, and so if I'm doing that, then it's fine, I don't care all that much. But maybe there is a balance, like maybe if my account never grew, then maybe I'd be like oh, gotta put something out that's like controversial or whatever.

Amy Taylor:

Yeah, and social media is really more just distribution of what you're doing. So where are you writing more now then? If you're not, because you've kind of grown on Twitter, you could absolutely funnel that into something else now or send the eyeballs to somewhere else. Is it Substack you started writing on now.

John Goddard:

Yeah, so I've always had the Substack, but I'm putting more effort into growing that for a few reasons. First one is that, yeah, I think it's more geared towards like long form writing and thoughtful content. Second, I want to censorship proof myself, so I have an email list on Substack that I own. Yeah, very smart. So I've been growing that. I'm posting on Nostra I'm not sure if that's how you pronounce it, but you know that like decentralized social media network. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm trying to do more stuff on that and I'm trying to do more podcasts, so that's the thing. And I'm trying to do some spaces as well on Twitter.

Amy Taylor:

So yeah, I mean, I think personally, Twitter or X. We haven't. I don't think anyone's read adjusted to that rebrand.

John Goddard:

Yet it's a copy. X a copy.

Amy Taylor:

Yeah, especially when the posts were called tweets and now they're posts. It's like, oh, I've kind of lost the happy little blue bird, but never mind. I think you're absolutely doing it the right way from a strategy perspective. But let's get back to you, your style. I love that you've taken these serious topics forward thinking but made them funny. You seem to have adjusted a bit of late and, in your words, taken the reins off because you may or may not be writing under a pen name. That's for people to now be left in the dark about. I'm not gonna clarify you the way, that's your prerogative, but it's allowed you. Now. It feels like from seeing your content recently that there's even more of you coming through because it's less satire. More in your face Like this is real shit that could happen if we're not careful. And it made me think.

Amy Taylor:

This morning, actually, I was re-reading the first half of the People's Republic of Victoria and I've highlighted a couple of things that jumped out at me that reminded me of a BBC series in the UK that I watched a few years ago, called Years and Years.

Amy Taylor:

So anyone in the UK or anyone who's seen this series it was set, I think, in 2030. This is your book's 2029, but in the UK, in Europe, and it touched on all these a lot of similar sort of threads or societal themes that could play out if we're not careful. And there's a dialogue, which I'm gonna go and look it up, the video of, of the grandmother of this focus, the central family and she sits at the table one day when everyone's whinging about how the world has gone crazy and she bangs her fists down and she has a. She just gives the whole family this huge lecture about how we let this happen, we did this, we chose that, and it's brilliant and it's so true. And I think this whether it's satirical or I don't care what your style is, but people need to start thinking about the long-term impacts of these short-term decisions, which is that. Is that what you're trying to do? Yeah, 100%.

John Goddard:

It's really interesting because I think I got into a discussion about this the other night, on a space actually, but I think people, especially in Australia, because that's all I can comment on the people that I see around me have lost confidence in their ability to have agency over their lives. I see people and this is just people I see at work or people I come across in my day-to-day life. They're like oh, inflation's out of control. Oh my God, another tax. It's really really hard to feed my family.

John Goddard:

My business isn't doing well, why are there so many rules? I don't understand the entire taxation system. You know all of these things and they don't even. And then they say, oh well, what can you do about it? You can't do anything about it because I don't know what it is, but there's something about the Australian psyche that people have been almost beaten into a place where they know that they can't do anything to stop what the government is currently trying to do Resignation.

John Goddard:

Yeah, resignation, that's exactly the word for it and that stresses me out, and I also don't think it has to be that way.

Amy Taylor:

It doesn't. You're absolutely right, but this is what I'm trying to do more of with this podcast. It's like there's people out there and there's choices out there that are right for the time we're living in, but, unfortunately, to adopt that mentality, to take on that agency or control over your own life, you kind of have to drop all your other opinions, and I think people are so afraid to admit they may have been wrong and it's like, well, you weren't wrong, we've all made choices up to this point, doing the best with what we have, and it's almost like, particularly after something as divisive as the pandemic whether it was the vaccines, the lockdowns, whatever it was people were so divided and continue to be that there's like this fear around changing your mind and it's like, well, ultimately you're the one that's losing out if you don't adopt a different mindset around something or a different choice around something, because the opportunities are out there and I just wanted to. There's a passage here that I pulled up, I highlighted when I was rereading so, and this is very similar to that series. I was talking about years and years set in 2030 UK. Sorry, 2030 UK. It's not Alexa. They gave it a different name in the series. I can't remember what it was, but essentially what we currently know is Alexa and mine's next to me, so she might be about to do something. I hope she doesn't.

Amy Taylor:

There's a passage here. Alexa, can you turn the lights on so you're at home with your wife. She just lit up mine. Sorry, distract my lights, michael. Come on now. No, we're already on. Alexa, can you turn the lights on? I say to the ever-present neon red light that floats around my apartment ceaselessly recording my daily activities. Now again, people are gonna think, oh, that's a bit extreme, but it will get there if we let it right. So Is that? Yeah, you're nodding.

John Goddard:

Yeah, well, I mean, alexa already basically records everything there's. I forget what it was. There was this Was it a ring doorbell? It was something like that, which is owned by Amazon. Um, I Forget what happened, but yeah, someone said something that either the ring or their Alexa Considered was racist. It wasn't meant to be recording, it wasn't on, but it noticed that it was and there were some repercussions for the guy and I'm so upset that I can't remember the article but like that thing's recording non-stop and I don't have any elixirs in my house because they freak me out. I mean, I still have Siri and I know that she's probably listening to me, but I've tried to live without an iPhone. It's really hard.

Amy Taylor:

Yes, well, and you've got in here. You've changed it to Vic phone, right. Yeah, Victoria phone is that? Is that something you came up with thinking? In the most extreme case you wouldn't have an iPhone because you then reference later on Someone had someone elsewhere, in another city shows you something on what I think is called an iPhone, because they will be in Replace with these I guess, government mandated devices Is that the yeah like a while.

John Goddard:

It's basically like a Huawei or something. You know what I mean. So it's got like the government spyware on it. It's. You know you can only access certain websites. Yeah and I mean I don't see that we're that that far off, that. I mean that's what happens in China.

Amy Taylor:

Mm-hmm, and I think this is what's so, so important. And this is where it starts crossing over into the Bitcoin conversation, the CBDC Conversation, and so I'll finish reading this passage. You've got Alexa following you around there, ceaselessly recording my daily activities, and Alexa says lighting not available. She responds in her mechanical, almost human voice. Alexa continues thought crime committed by resident at 1362 pm Today, 1362. I've already just noticed that's not a typo. Is that you being silly? Have we created more time in an hour?

John Goddard:

No, that's a reference to 1984 and I forget what it is, but there's something In 1984 where they have like another hour, or yeah, there's something about the door.

Amy Taylor:

Well, 1984.

John Goddard:

Yeah, correct, so it's a. It's yeah, the reference to that and I haven't read that tell me what happens, so how do? We end up with 62 minutes in an hour or more. I Can't remember the reference. Yeah, someone has to read it and find out.

Amy Taylor:

Doesn't matter. I should have zoomed in on that without realizing it was a real.

John Goddard:

It's a real subtle reference, so wouldn't jump out at you. Okay, go.

Amy Taylor:

Thought crime committed by resident at 1362 today, resident improperly judged a birthing parent who was being inclusive by learning its child's play. Child play with used drug paraphernalia. Social credit score is now too low for electricity use. So it's, it's hilarious, it's jarring, it's extreme. Some people would probably poo, poo it like you know, don't be ridiculous, we'll never get there. But as you've just you know, detailed, illustrated, spelled out it, it's possible, right, nothing's impossible when we are kind of living in this semi matrix world. And that's not the words of a conspiracy theorist, that's the truth, that's the facts. Right, our data is everywhere.

John Goddard:

Yeah, well, the technology exists for it. They do it in China, and that's just because they do it in China is not to say that they would do it here, but the technology definitely exists for it. But I think there's already a an element of social credit score At play in Australia, in the West right. So that's what the whole cancel culture thing is about if you think the wrong opinion, you don't have a job anymore, and that is Almost a more brutal form of justice than our actual justice system, which has, you know, requirements for evidence and procedural fairness and all those sorts of things, whereas someone can maybe make an accusation against you or you can say the wrong thing online and then you know your job's gone. And once your job's gone, I mean that would have impacts on your family and all that sort of stuff. So it's a really brutal form of, I Guess, a form of social credit that currently exists at the moment.

Amy Taylor:

Yeah, and and for someone who's in the Judicial system, representing our judicial system, we started to talk about this before. Feel free to cut it off at any point if you don't feel comfortable talking about it, but you know you're you're out there. It wouldn't be hard for people to figure out if you are using a pen name pen name. If you are, you know you're Risking, as a lot of people who are starting to get passionate about. Okay, this is enough. There's a lot of people in the Bitcoin space, you know, making noise, who have, who have now put their entire future reputation on the line by speaking out about these things. And you and I started to talk about a topic that is what woke me up massively during the pandemic, which was the Novak Djokovic situation that played out in Australia. For the Australian Open and For those that weren't paying attention he refused to get vaccinated, wasn't allowed into Australia. Then they argued that he should be allowed into Australia. Then the Supreme Court or not it's not called the Supreme Court here what is it in Australia?

Amy Taylor:

The federal court the federal court basically said he can stay, but all of a sudden he was turned around and sent home Because the government essentially stepped in and overruled the court system, that is am I right if that's a very potted version of what happened?

John Goddard:

Yeah, it's. It's broadly what happened. So, yeah, I don't know exactly the series of events, but what happened was Djokovic had an exemption, so at the time to come to Australia, I think you needed to be vaccinated and he had a what he thought was a valid exemption.

John Goddard:

Yes to that rule so he would be allowed in and he had a visa and then when he landed I Don't know, something happened when he landed, but what happened in the end was that the minister the immigration minister cancelled his visa under some wide-ranging discretionary powers that they have under that act and Once it was cancelled, djokovic applied to the federal court for a review of that decision, which is something you can do right. So for a, a, a Government officer exercises some power that they have. You can apply to the court to review that and they review it to see if it was a reasonable decision to make, if was made lawfully. And I think I went to the federal court first of a single judge of the federal court and then He'd lost, I guess, or maybe he won. Anyway. It was appealed up to the full court, which is a couple more judges in the federal court, and that was actually.

John Goddard:

I thought that was crazy as well. I saw I read the decision as part of. I'm doing a master's degree through Melbourne Uni at the moment in law and we read that as part of a civil procedure subject and the lecture was kind of like well, do you think that that was a Reasonable decision for the court to make and I have my own opinions about it, but I prepared for this because I don't want to Ruin my legal career by criticizing the full court of the federal court of Australia. So there's this Academic, maria O'Sullivan, who works at Monash or she worked at Monash when she published this article in 2022, which is in the Admin law journal she I looked her up. She's got a PhD. I think she works at Deakin now, but anyway, she reached the same conclusion that I did about that decision and, basically, the federal court made a legally correct decision.

Amy Taylor:

Okay.

John Goddard:

So that's what happened like. So, to the letter of the law, what they did was fine. Except she criticizes this decision, and I criticize it as well, because the rationale Used by the court was that actually I might even just read a little bit of this, as I've argued elsewhere, while the federal court's decision may be viewed as legally justified, given the breadth of the cancellation powers in the migration act, it's concerning that the court could find no legal error in the reasoning of the minister about public perceptions of Mr Jokovich. The basis of the minister's findings was that it was sufficient to show that Mr Jokovich is an iconic sports star who is perceived as being Anti-vaccination and therefore may foster anti-vacc sentiment in Australia. Put simply, it does not appear to me to be rational to determine that an individual's eligibility to remain in a country upon the perception of, upon the perception or actions of others. And so the court then goes to talk about the fact that he might influence young and impression, or young and impressionable people. And then this professor says it's not self-evident to me that a tennis star is likely to influence young people in particular in this context.

John Goddard:

So I mean, yeah, it raises concerns about, like how wide ranging the discretionary powers of the government are. And then it also Highlights how Armstrong, I think the judiciary is to step in and Stop that if they wanted to. I mean, I thought that decision was. It was crazy. They thought that the mere presence of a world-level athlete that was not vaccinated would be a threat to the government of Australia. And so when you put it in that context, you can see that how that could be Weaponized or used in a whole range of consequence, in a whole range of circumstances. If a person comes into Australia that doesn't share the views of the government at the time, that is a threat to the good order of Australia, and then they should be removed. And if it's not the immigration minister, it could be a different minister with other powers. So yeah, I found that concerning, very concerning.

Amy Taylor:

I 100% agree, especially if the argument is young people, which at that point ironically the timing was I was vaccinated. Doesn't matter At the time, it just felt a bit too convenient that it was around that time that they were trying to roll out the vaccines for younger people. You know everyone else anyway. Let's move on to the next question. Interesting take from someone who is, you know, studying, reading, writing law, you're in the industry, it's. It's another industry now that I think so many people like the medical industry are starting to feel a bit conflicted with.

Amy Taylor:

Well, I entered this for the N. The reasons I entered this industry, apart from maybe a great career move as a salary, is wanting to serve people or wanting to live a life of service to other human beings. And then, all of a sudden, the goalposts get moved and it's like well, hang on a minute. My personal views on how best to serve someone is now being hamstrung by these new so-called rules, and it's why social media is becoming so divisive, and I think it's why somewhere like Twitter or X is where a lot of people are turning for other views, because Elon Musk has made this commitment. Time will tell if he holds on to it, but that no one side of an argument is going to be shut down, whereas clearly on other platforms it did. So fair play putting yourself out there, pen name or not.

Amy Taylor:

And there's another issue you touched on in the book which I just wanted to for selfish reasons as someone who's had the occasional fertility challenge of late you comment on. Well, you make quite a few references to the environment or climate change being this catastrophic fear mongering mainstream media tactic that I totally agree with. Having gone down those rabbit holes, there's no question that the environment has had impact from humans that we need to be aware of and do our bit. Is it as catastrophic as we're made to think sometimes? Perhaps not. And one of those issues is population decline and people not having children. And you comment on that a couple of times through wondering if we will ever be permitted to produce a child together because in this 2029 world that you're describing, your wife is being used as a breeder. That was jarring, but again, it's kind of Hanmaid's Tale for anyone who's read that or I did it at school.

John Goddard:

Well, the premise? Yeah, it's the same outcome as Hanmaid's Tale, but due to a different set of circumstances or, I guess, the opposite side of the political spectrum, I haven't read Hanmaid's Tale. I watched some of the series, but not much. The gist that I gather from it is that the evil patriarchy forces women to be breeders. I guess Is the vibe.

Amy Taylor:

And not necessarily with their own husbands, because you've made some mistakes with your spending and therefore you don't have a social credit score high enough to have a child with your own wife taking it to the extreme, potentially.

John Goddard:

Yeah, well, and that part of the book was inspired by another news article that I can't quite recall, but yeah, basically encouraging women to in California to be foster parents for gay couples. And yeah, I just wonder if it gets. I mean, obviously this is stretching things out right to the extreme. Is there a time when the, the premier of the dictator, says well, straight people, you've had, you've had your run, now it's the time for gay people. They need you to step up to the plate and donate your body.

Amy Taylor:

And that actually is the the story of that graphic novel kind of happening in the background which is not explicit, so it doesn't need to be explicit, I think, just throwing paragraphs out there like that and I've highlighted them. I just discovered how to highlight an ebook recently. It's very exciting. I think it's jarring enough. You know, and then you've got your career in there. You're working in a bank offering loans. The building that you work in has got black rock emblazoned across it because no one owns their homes anymore or any real estate, because these investment firms or asset management firms have bought everything. That's happening. That's not fake, that is real. These investment funds own subsidiary companies that literally sweep in in a recession and buy up real estate in bulk.

Amy Taylor:

You know I've only learned this through going down the money in Bitcoin rabbit hole and you're talking about processing loans for citizens who have run out of universal basic income. That's just so frightening. It's not true. And the universal basic income is obviously being issued on a central bank digital currency that is controlled and surveilled. This stuff's coming, you know, if we're not careful. The interest rates we charge on the loans based vary based on race and gender, in accordance with the 2029 state strategy for equity and inclusivity. This way, the historical impacts of white supremacy and colonialism, which are still felt today, can be properly addressed. I say it in jest and it's ironic again that today's the referendum for the yes vote, but it's just.

Amy Taylor:

The root cause is, to me, money, or the monetary system, and I know you've gone down that rabbit hole. You're not necessarily a hardcore Bitcoin or on the philosophical side of things, but I can definitely see that you're coming round to that. So let's talk, let's start moving into the get paid or the monetary, the money side of what I like to talk about from your experience. You, you have a buy me a coffee link. I think that's the first time I discovered you. I think I bought you a coffee. When did you introduce that? Because, were you uncomfortable just charging for a paid newsletter, or maybe that's further down the line? When did you realize oh, you know, maybe I'll throw it out there that people can reward me for my efforts?

John Goddard:

I don't know. I just thought it would be a good idea. It seemed like an easier ask than a subscription. I just personally hate subscriptions as well. I don't sign up to any subscriptions. Any product that needs a subscription I don't buy, just because, from a money management point of view, I think subscriptions are a raw and personal finance point of view. That's a tip for everyone to leave all subscriptions because you forget you've got them, or well, that's the thing you forget, you've got them.

John Goddard:

and then some things, they force you into a subscription model and it's like well, no, I don't want you to have a portion of my paycheck every week. I want my paycheck and I'll decide if I, if I, your product's good or bad, and I'll have it. Yeah, and they're just trying to. Yeah, sign up to subscription. It really fries me. Did you see? Like BMW, I think, is now charging a subscription for heated seats. So if you want to heat it seats in your BMW, you have to pay every month. And that's what freaks me out about this.

Amy Taylor:

Yeah, that sounds like a really poor application of the business model that is subscriptions. I mean, I don't have a problem with subscription. I think if you see the value in something and you want to pay for it every month and there is like so, for example, I think it's part of a very smart business model. So, like Tesla, for example, they've grown that out. Now They've got the cars, they've got the charging points and you can have a subscription to make sure you've got unlimited charging or unlimited this, that and the other, which I think if you are bought into their brand, if you're bought into the product, the convenience of that is probably worth having. So I don't have a problem with it if it's applied smartly. Or having you know, like Dollar Shave Club, huge business and it's just the. It's the convenience of I don't have to think about that, my raises are going to turn up when I need them. Or Nespresso coffee pods, have it, they're going to turn up when I need them. So there's a balance, but I do get what you're saying.

John Goddard:

Yeah, well, I don't have no subscriptions. I got my audible and stuff, but I think I just went once. I went to buy like a fitness strap or something, I think, and the only option was to have it as a subscription. I was just like no, I don't know Was that it. Yeah, it must be, yeah, yeah.

Amy Taylor:

Fair enough. So you got the coffee going. You're on the sub stack. They have a paid newsletter option, yeah. I think you'll be surprised. I mean, maybe see how you go. If you don't feel comfortable, it won't work, because people pick up on that, I think.

John Goddard:

So people can do like a monthly sign up on my Buy Me a Coffee and on some stack, and people do Okay. I just wanted to offer the option. It's like if you put out writing and you think it's good, send me something if you want. I thought that was just an easier ask than saying sign up for something. And plus, if someone signed up for something every month, then I've got a monthly obligation and I don't know if I want the monthly obligation, the feeling that you've got to produce extra for the people that are paying.

Amy Taylor:

Yeah, I get that. I get that. It's precious Like. Oh look, my freedom. I want to change my mind. You just maybe think of something then. Oh, yes, so that's the beauty of something like Nostra, right For anyone listening who's not a Bitcoin or who possibly is into Bitcoin or knows what Bitcoin is but doesn't know what Nostra is.

Amy Taylor:

So Nostra is built on the Lightning Network, which is essentially a layer on top of Bitcoin, which means we have social media, where every interaction is sending bits of Bitcoin essentially, and it's the new internet. People keep referring to Web 3 as this and it's like no, it's Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the only one that's decentralized enough. That's why it's taking so long to get it right, because the foundation layer has to be right, but essentially, we're all communicating and I can't get Nostra to work for me. I think it's a long way off being mainstream adopted, but when it does, it's going to go bang, because people are going to start to realize that financially incentivizing these things is the only way that people are going to care, and Michael Saylor talks about this. If you introduce the monetary penalty or the monetary incentive, you can't suddenly create an app that sends millions of bots out DMing everybody because it's going to cost too much. So I'm super glad that you're on Nostra and ahead of that, because that's probably the most authentic way to get paid for your creation.

John Goddard:

Can I just say Nostra blew my mind when I started using it. It absolutely blew my mind. I was like this has to be how things will work. It was just so frictionless and it yeah. So I compare it to buy me a coffee on Twitter and for someone to buy me a coffee, they have to log on to, they have to click the thing. Then they go to this external website, then they put their car details in. They get charged like I don't know how many fees and depending on what currency they want to buy in as well, there's like a currency exchange fee and it's just clunky.

John Goddard:

And then on Nostra, I just click a button and I send some sats to someone. There's some guy on there who actually helped me, said everything up. He said I noticed that you're on there, but I think You're obviously struggling with the learning curve. Yes, so he sent me a message and he said me this whole like instruction booklet on how to set it up properly. I was like that's awesome. I just sent him some stuff because that's what you can do and it's so easy.

Amy Taylor:

I love it.

John Goddard:

Where in the world was a I think he's Australian, so he found me on Twitter. So I presume I think he's in Sydney or something, but I'm not sure. But I know that I've got people on there from America or whatever and there's no exchange rate, it's just easy.

Amy Taylor:

Because it's a universal currency, right? Or it's it's the currency of the internet, which is universal? Yeah, it's. I can see how Nostra is gonna go bang, but I haven't had the frictionless experience that you have, but I'm probably doing something wrong, so I do chip away at it when I have time, but I'm glad that you're on there. I'm glad that you're being rewarded in that way, because it is genius and it is. That was another one of those moments where Bitcoin just makes sense. Awesome, good for you. So there was one thing you mentioned as well. Oh, that's right. You said that there was a point not too long ago where your bank account got hacked. So that was a moment for you where you Realized Money in bank is not your own. Tell me about that. Remind me what happened.

John Goddard:

So I think, well, I always knew what was going on with the money in the bank. I knew that I didn't have, I knew that I didn't have, or I knew that they didn't have my money there and I was kind of fine with it because I didn't have a huge amount of money and it never actually impacted me personally. But I think recently I read some or in the last few years you've seen more and more newspaper articles of people getting debanked and that stressed me out. And then in December last year my bank account got hacked and I Went through the process of trying to get money out of that account and I was just like I couldn't get it out. It took days, just quickly. When you say your bank account got hacked, what?

Amy Taylor:

did that look like? How did you know what happened? So you go to look in. Oh, I think it was my card.

John Goddard:

I think it was my card that got hacked and it was my bank card that I you saw as in a credit card or anything like that. It was actually linked to the account that I have my cash in and I just I don't know. I just looked in there one day and I was looking through my transactions and I saw transactions that weren't mine and I was like, oh no, what's going on?

John Goddard:

Okay, so money and I could, yeah, money had gone and I called the bank and they said yeah, we'll get on to it, but it might take a couple weeks and we can't guarantee what's gonna happen. And in my mind I was just like what the hell? And I cancelled the car right away. But this person had spent my money and my money was already gone and I didn't know yeah, I didn't know what else they had access to if they had access to the account, so I tried to get my money out of there, which was incredibly difficult.

John Goddard:

They put roadblocks up Every step of the way. You know, I went down to the bank and tried to get money out. I think it was like a Saturday or something. So I was like, oh just, I don't have that bank card, so I'll transfer it to an account that I have at another bank and then withdraw it from that ATM. But you can only transfer a couple grand a day. How do I get this out? So I went down. Yeah, I went down a few rabbit holes and, yeah, I have got most of my money out at the banks because it's it. Just, it gave me so much too much anxiety. Yeah, I agree, and it's interesting, just you touching on that I had an email.

Amy Taylor:

I've got various accounts with various places because of, you know, just wanting to diversify you can. You can end up quite paranoid. I don't think it's necessary to be as paranoid as perhaps Bitcoin as are, but when you get this passion, it's like no way it's safe. But I had an email from one of the big banks and I tweeted it. So if anyone wants to know which bank it was, feel free. Saying that the increase in the amount of money that I have in my bank is they're increasing the interest rate they're offering for balances over $250,000.

Amy Taylor:

And I was thinking, huh, why would they do that? Because you know, I only learned in the last few years that if you've got a savings account, if you're, you know, and some people do if they've sold a property or you know, come into wealth and they've got to put their cash somewhere whilst they think about if they're going to invest it, some people might want to sit on the cash over $250,000. You're not protected. There's no government insurance policy in place. So if the bank goes bust which they can their businesses that could be going up in smoke and you're only protected up to $250,000. So why would banks be now offering an incentive to keep money with them over that amount. That freaks me out. I don't know what the answer is, I'm just putting it out there. It just maybe think you know wrong think.

Amy Taylor:

Do you have any thoughts on that?

John Goddard:

Don't ask the questions. I have no idea why I have no idea why, but I don't like it and I don't like that. You know they're all changing their Policies now so that they can Just basically, yeah, rip away your banking services if they deem necessary. They're also Tracking the carbon of your purchases. I think Suncorp's the only bank doing that at the moment and it's you can opt into it, so it's not a.

John Goddard:

Not a necessary thing, but you can kind of see where that goes. So if the bank Can track and record all of your transactions easily, which they can, yeah and then they're also tracking how much carbon, what your carbon footprint is. Then it's very easy for a government to say well, you can only Consume X amount of carbon a month, and then, once you've gone over that limit, the your bank account shuts down.

Amy Taylor:

Well, and I think if anyone wants to see where that ends up, that you know, read the book, go to John's bio or go subscribe to sub stack and download the PDF. It's 50 something pages, it's not very long.

John Goddard:

It's not long and it's also gonna be going behind a paywall in a couple weeks so people can get it for while it's free.

Amy Taylor:

Yes, yeah, awesome, great good call to action there, john, very good.

John Goddard:

Yes.

Amy Taylor:

Cool. Well, I think you've done a really good job of it. Might be fast fiction, as you call it. We need to optimize your bio. I don't think it sells you enough. I'm just looking at it here. I write fast fiction is nowhere near compelling enough for people to look at what you've done and Going behind a paywall in a couple of months would probably be more compelling.

John Goddard:

Um, yeah, so yeah, so interesting.

Amy Taylor:

Um, you've done a lot, you've learned a lot, you've taken this turn. You've made that kind of leap of faith, putting yourself out there. Love it, I love it. I think more people need to sort of start taking this stuff seriously. It might sound extreme, but we're closer to that sort of I don't know what the word is dystopian world than perhaps we think, and I'm all about people just doing what's best for them and creating their own world. There's lots of opportunities out there to do that rather than get sucked into the fear of it. But it's good to acknowledge the potential of what it could turn into, so that you have options and Bitcoin is a big part of that Having money outside of that system, giving you options to participate in this community of All this Jeff Booth calls it the parallel system, right which is just so much more Healthy when it comes to humans interacting. So I love that you're on the nostril train. I didn't realize you were quite that far along in your Bitcoin journey, but good for you. Well done, um, okay.

Amy Taylor:

So, lastly, I like to wrap up with just a couple of little questions as to what advice you would give your younger self, and it can. It's very broad. This it's the be. You get paid things. So what advice would you give your younger self about, I guess, being you, being authentic, all those kind of things, anything that comes to mind under that umbrella. And then a piece of advice that you would give your younger self about money, not necessarily the technical, like smart investing, or it can be, but it could be. Just what did you make money mean? Anything that comes to mind that you would tell your a younger version of you.

John Goddard:

Okay, so yeah, what I would tell a younger version of myself would be to Stop drinking and doing drugs a lot sooner than I did. Right, okay, I think that there are some wasted years there, and also.

Amy Taylor:

Why.

John Goddard:

Why? Well, I don't know. I just drank a lot and I did a lot of drugs and it, like it, hinted. My price stopped. My progress, basically is is all I can say and once I stopped doing that, everything got a whole lot easier and I got a whole lot more productive and I was able to do a lot more in a day.

John Goddard:

And yeah, I just don't think you can think when your brain is Foggy. I mean, alcohol is poison, it destroys your brain cells and a lot of the time I think alcohol is actually the most insidious Drug of them all because it's so socially accepted and when you're out people say oh it's Saturday night, just have one drink. Oh, we're celebrating, just have a couple drinks or whatever. But it adds up over time and Every day that you're not spending doing what you want to do, you kind of get further away from your goals and you get further away from the person that you want to be. And if you leave that go for too long, you get anxiety, you get existential angst and I personally found it very stressful.

John Goddard:

So that's what I would say about that and maybe also just like have confidence in the things that you say for a long time, and I think I said this to you before For a long time I didn't have the confidence to say out loud what I wanted to say, or I didn't have confidence to publish any writing or anything like that, or actually, it's not even that I didn't have the confidence, it's just that I didn't want to be faced with backlash or I didn't want to. I thought that it was best to keep what I thought to myself, and I think that's almost an Australian thing, because Australians have that like oh, don't rock the boat, don't tall poppy syndrome.

John Goddard:

Yeah, tall poppy syndrome as well. And it just got to a point and this was only six months ago and I was just like fuck, I can't keep it anymore. I just got to say it, I'm just going to put it all out. And now what I'm doing is writing all this stuff because it just has to like I can't keep it in because it actually is corrosive to your insides if you keep what you want to say in for too long.

Amy Taylor:

So true. Yeah, it's corrosive to your insides if you keep it in for so long. I love that. That's really good. Yeah, that that's going in my best bits episode whenever that's coming.

John Goddard:

Love it and I love that it was only six months ago in your 30 years of age, like that is.

Amy Taylor:

That's. That's the real epidemic of our time, right, how many years it takes the average human to get to this point of going. Why not?

John Goddard:

It's insane.

Amy Taylor:

And do you know what?

John Goddard:

I've got, I know and I've got this app on my phone, so I use the day one app, which is a diary app. You pay about 60 bucks a year for it. I've been using it since 2014.

Amy Taylor:

subscription John.

John Goddard:

Yes, I know it is a subscription, but it's so valuable, there you go. Yes, it's the best. It's the best money I've ever spent and I've been writing in it since 2014. And I've been writing before that, obviously. But I see that all this stuff from what is that nine years ago, 10 years ago, and I'm like why was I not saying this out loud instead of inside of this for so long?

Amy Taylor:

So, anyway, there's, that was other things, so money, anything to do with money, what you thought about money, what you did with your money, anything. Whatever comes to mind first.

John Goddard:

You have to be more careful with money than you think, because it's harder to get than you think and it's easier to spend than you think it is. I think I grew up in a family we went like super rich or anything like that, but my parents always had, like, you know nice things, we're earning money, and so I just had the. I was under the false impression that I would just be wealthy by that. It would just happen.

Amy Taylor:

Comfortable.

John Goddard:

Yeah, that I would always just be comfortable, and then I don't know, I never actually felt comfortable until I sat down and actually just looked at what I was spending each month. So that's when all the subscriptions went and yeah, and all that sort of stuff. I don't know. You just have to keep track of your money, yeah. And then, yeah, anything that's excess, just invest in something that'll make more money, and then it's fine. What is it? Spend less than you earn and invest the rest.

Amy Taylor:

Seems simple, doesn't it? But I think yeah, and I never even I knew that intellectually, but it was, I guess, the question I came to before going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole. But then I got down that rabbit hole as a result of asking. The question was why? Why do you need to invest the rest? Why do you constantly need to be squirreling away money that will grow in the future? Because prices will continue to go up in infinite and whatever the term is? Because why and it was.

Amy Taylor:

It wasn't until my mom I told this story many times. It wasn't until my mom lost her husband and my grandmother, her mom, and was down to the three of them under one roof, and her one pension wasn't enough for her to live, even with no mortgage, like with a roof overhead. And I was like, why? That's that's so screwed up. This woman's worked really hard her whole life. She's done everything you're supposed to do. She's been a beautiful citizen, you know, and I've done anything wrong. Never got anything from a divorce, you know. It's like why is that amount of money that you're supposed to have getting be getting back at that point when you stop working? Not enough? And so it's that question why, but why, but why, but why?

John Goddard:

And.

Amy Taylor:

I think as a lawyer, you're probably naturally inclined to ask those questions, and now you're doing a really good job of asking them out loud. So I'm glad you reached that point and tell us where the best place is for people to find you. I will link whatever you want in the show notes, but where would you prefer people find you first?

John Goddard:

Twitter at non slex and n e s t l? E x. I've gota sub stack which is J O H N G O D D a r d at sub stackcom and on Nostra as well, which I think you can find at John Goddard, or I've got a link to my Nostra in my in your channel, so biositecom. Yeah, that's got it all. Everything's there. Yeah, it's all there.

Amy Taylor:

I like that you're using strike. You're more of a bit coiner than I thought you were. I'm pleased.

John Goddard:

Just because, when we were, talking.

Amy Taylor:

once before you were talking about buying a house and you'd sold some bitcoins by a property, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have a problem Do you do what you want to do, but I'm glad you're studying hard on Bitcoin and using it as well as hodling it.

John Goddard:

That's what I'm fully on the train. I've started that book that you recommended to me. The price of tomorrow also started the Bitcoin standard. I mean I think we said this like I was known about Bitcoin for ages and always thought it was cool but didn't realize the practical importance of it until my bank account got hacked and I needed to store my own money. And then, yeah, I mean you know the rest of the rabbit hole inflation, government money and yeah it's personal, it's very personal and I think you've just that's the perfect place to finish.

Amy Taylor:

It's like until it personally affects you, you don't really do the work, but unfortunately I don't. You know, we can only keep having these conversations and producing content, like we both are, and hoping that people get there before they need it. But thank you so much. That was a really different angle on all the things I'm trying to share and spread the word about. So keep it up, love you work.

John Goddard:

No worries.

Amy Taylor:

We'll talk soon.

John Goddard:

Thanks for having me.

Amy Taylor:

Hello, my friend, as someone who's not the best at finishing the things they start, Thank you so much for making it to the end of this podcast. I hope you found it helpful. Maybe it piqued your curiosity on something new or even just made you smile for a few seconds. If any of those things apply here, then all my regular tech challenges and tantrums are well worth it to get this to you. If you heard anything at all that you think could help just even one other human being, there's a couple of things you can do that I would really and truly appreciate. Firstly, you can follow or subscribe wherever you're listening.

Amy Taylor:

On most podcast platforms, this is usually just a case of hitting a follow button or a plus sign on the main show page. This means you'll never miss an episode, which is hopefully a win-win for us both. Secondly, if you're feeling really generous, you can leave me a five-star rating or review wherever you're listening. And lastly, feel free to share an episode with a friend on social media. With any thoughts, feedback, suggestions or even criticism, it's okay, I can take it. Just tag me using the handle at Amy Taylor Says to make sure I see it and can thank you personally Any or all of these things genuinely mean more human beings see and hear these conversations. So again, thank you for being here and helping me with my mission with BU Get Paid to help as many people as possible know themselves, know money and be happy. See you next time.

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